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Hmm.. good point and I never took this into consideration - AND you are right about the sights - I don't really want anything particularly tall.

Oh well, I'll just stick with my 'conventional' rifle designs.

There is a reason for the tall sights on AR, AK and similar weapons. It was discovered in WWII that a high volumes of rapid fire would create heat mirage and obscure the sight picture, elevating the sights helps to minimize that issue.
 
@RVTECH , I'm not meaning to be an azz.
Maybe this will help you get a better, visual understanding.
Line-Of-Sight.png

No M4/AR15 stock.
LOS-M16-1.png
 
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I'm not meaning to be an azz.
Oh your not - I appreciate the help however here is a visual representation (somewhat exaggerated) but this is what I saw when I shouldered the AR.

Regardless of the sight height the 'green line' (the sight plane) should be parallel to the plane of the barrel.
In my case it is not due to the lack of drop in the stock.

When I sight down (for example) a Winchester as shown, the 'green line' is what I see.

download.jpg H4091-L123139595.jpg
 
Oh your not - I appreciate the help however here is a visual representation (somewhat exaggerated) but this is what I saw when I shouldered the AR.

Regardless of the sight height the 'green line' (the sight plane) should be parallel to the plane of the barrel.
In my case it is not due to the lack of drop in the stock.

When I sight down (for example) a Winchester as shown, the 'green line' is what I see.

View attachment 642005 View attachment 642013
I know and understand, exactly the visual you experienced.
This "perspective" can be changed in MANY ways, with the correct pair (or single if it has the FSB) of Iron Sights.
Don't cancel your wanting to get one for that reason, alone. Try as many sight configurations as possible.
The thing with these type of weapons, your cheek-bone is the sight stage-point in alignment with the bore.
 
If you could shoot your A1 Sporter you can shoot any of the M16 based platforms once properly paired sights are added.

If you use the photo you posted above but move the green line to a place where a front sight would be you will have a much flatter angle than the picture you show. Now put a properly paired rear sight on the rifle and you will get the parallel sight line other pictures have shown.

If, once you place your cheek on the stock you find the rifle's sights are too high you may need a cheek riser, your position may be at fault or you could look at lower sights.

If you have an exceptionally long face that places your eye higher than normal you may need to raise the sights a bit , there are bases made just for this purpose.

The standard configurations will fit 95% of the population, it's very rare to find someone so large or so small they have to resort to the solutions posted above.

I hope this helps.
 
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Oh your not - I appreciate the help however here is a visual representation (somewhat exaggerated) but this is what I saw when I shouldered the AR.

Regardless of the sight height the 'green line' (the sight plane) should be parallel to the plane of the barrel.
In my case it is not due to the lack of drop in the stock.

When I sight down (for example) a Winchester as shown, the 'green line' is what I see.

View attachment 642005 View attachment 642013

Its an optical illusion created by the lack of rear sight. Your eye is going to pick up the "ladder" created by the rails, but if you put sights on, that magically goes away. The sights are not only elevated because of heat mirage, but because it puts them at eye level. If you look at the drop on your lever gun, the sights sit at the same rough height in comparison to cheek weld as they would on the AR.

Put a red dot or a set of irons on the gun, and it will shoot just fine for you. The only thing to remember is that at very close ranges, "height over bore" becomes an issue. If you're at across-room distances from a badguy, and you want to shoot him in the center of the chest, you put the sights at the top of his chest/bottom of his neck. If you want to put the bullet between his eyes, you put the front sight at the top of his forehead. When you get out to normal, reasonable rifle engagement distances, the point of impact and point of aim get far closer.
 
Your other option if you want a semi auto tactical rifle - get an AK. There is some drop to that stock. The 7.62x39 has similar recoil impulse to a soft .30-30, and similar ballistics.
 
Your other option if you want a semi auto tactical rifle - get an AK. There is some drop to that stock. The 7.62x39 has similar recoil impulse to a soft .30-30, and similar ballistics.
Actually owned one once - for a short amount of time - a Maadi to be exact and said I would never own an AK again.
The crudest mating of wood and steel I have ever experienced.

It's not my desire to own a 'tactical' rifle. The idea was was to possibly have a semi auto 9mm carbine to replace my Ruger PCC but with some different sight options I could incorporate but I do not want to get into an endless regimen of sight swaps to get what I want.
 
Actually owned one once - for a short amount of time - a Maadi to be exact and said I would never own an AK again.
The crudest mating of wood and steel I have ever experienced.

It's not my desire to own a 'tactical' rifle. The idea was was to possibly have a semi auto 9mm carbine to replace my Ruger PCC but with some different sight options I could incorporate but I do not want to get into an endless regimen of sight swaps to get what I want.

Sounds like you need to find a Marlin Camp 9?
 
Sounds like you need to find a Marlin Camp 9?
Actually I had considered it (and almost bought one new back in the 90s) but they have some shortcomings.

I really like my PCC - but the 'breakdown' configuration has caused some problems as outlined in a previous post.

With regard to the problems I am still working on them and have not reached any 'conclusions' yet.
 
Going out on a limb...but appears to be a training issue and nothing more.

Over thinking the issue...can fix the problem for you free of charge...should be able to do it in about 10 min or less.

...where's that easy button?
 
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The whole point of "drop" is to allow your eye to align with the rear sight. It was called drop because all early rifles had their sights right on top of the barrel so to get the head down far enough to see the sights required a drop in the stock. The problem with drop is that it increases perceived recoil, because the center of rotation is higher than the center of resistance (your shoulder) so recoil imparts an upward movement to the rifle. This causes the comb to strike the cheek. The greater the drop, the greater the rotation and the more we feel the effects of recoil. The cheek happens to be a pretty tender part of our anatomy.

So, if a rifle could be made to recoil straight back there would be no impact on the cheek, just pressure back into the shoulder where there is much more mass to dissipate the energy and far fewer nerve endings to feel pressure and pain. There is more muscle over the bone as well making the strike of the recoiling rifle much more palatable than a strike to the thinly covered cheek bone.

The designers of the M16/AR15 family of rifles wanted to reduce perceived recoil to the greatest extent possible. Every bit of reduction, even for a 5.56 sized cartridge, increases hit probably making the trooper more lethal on the battle field. A straight back recoil also helps in recovery for second and subsequent shots. This is why pistol shooters grip the firearm as high as possible. They want as straight back recoil as can be had for the design.

To accomplish a more straight back recoil, you need to move the center of resistance closer to the longitudinal axis of the bore. The ideal is to have the shoulder directly behind the barrel, and this is accomplished with the M16 platform. But, now since the cheek (and by the dictates of anatomy, the eye) is now far higher over the bore than found with traditional rifles. The only way to allow the eye to align with properly regulated sights is to raise the sights much higher over the bore than a tradition rifle, which is exactly what they did with these rifles.

While drop is measured from the center of the bore to the top of the comb, the actual "thing" we are trying to measure is the relationship between the top of the comb and the longitudinal line across the sights. If you look at the picture the OP posted of the lever gun and then look at the pictures of ARs here as well as the PCCs you will notice that the distance the sight line is over the top of the comb is essentially the same for all of these differing rifle types. This is because a human's face is pretty standard (within a few fractions of an inch) regarding overall size and placement of the eyes in relation to the cheek structure.

So, all this to say that "zero" drop on an AR is NOT a problem for the OP or anybody for that matter. Since the OP could shoot his A1 no way he can't shoot later AR / MSR models.

To the OP I'll suggest: Quit looking across the sightless barrel of an AR. By doing this you will naturally look toward the end of the muzzle and see the "ladder effect" you mention. In use, with sights on the rifle you will never look "down" like that … never look at an angle that allows you to see what you are seeing. The front sight will raise your line of sight (whether a FSB mounted post or a scope) to parallel the barrel.

Put sights on the rifle and then look, you will find you have no problem unless you are doing something really weird regarding shoulder placement. Again though, you could shoot your A1 so you can shoot any "SIGHTED" AR platform.

I hope this helps!
 
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