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I believe it depends upon the condition of the firearm when being bought by the FFL. What I mean is if you sell your firearm to a dealer in parts then the dealer can sell it as parts. If you sell the firearm as an operating whole then the dealer has to sell it as a firearm and would not have follow the 1639 non-sense.

I see the FFL I normally use for transfers advertising both whole firearms and 'assembly required' firearms. So, I would suggest taking apart your firearm before selling or transferring to a FFL.
 
What if the FFL is taking the rifles apart, and selling the kit with a new stripped lower? I don't know what he would be doing with the original lowers though...
 
What if the FFL is taking the rifles apart, and selling the kit with a new stripped lower? I don't know what he would be doing with the original lowers though...
That "seems" like it would be fine. The lower he took off though would be the sticking point. I seems he would be stuck with lowers that had to always be either a rifle if that was how they originally were built and registered. Seems like it would be pointless. If an FFL really wants to help buyers get around the stupid new law just sell a lower that is an "other" and of course sell the accessories the buyer wishes. Then buyer can do as they please with the stuff later as the lower was sold as "other". Seems to be just begging for trouble down the road taking a rifle, taking it apart, then trying to do this. Like poking the bear (BATF & State) for no real benefit.
 
So let's do a theoretical action here.... As a person (ffl or not) I buy a AR platform complete rifle and take it completely apart. I sell some parts together in same box and others separately until I'm down to just the registered receiver. I then sell that receiver as a rifle receiver and buyer goes through the background check successfully no one is in hot water during the whole parts sales routine. If the buyer uses that registered receiver to build another rifle, no problem but if he uses it to build a pistol, he is in hot water! Is my logic good with this whole scenario? I think YES. The only fly in the ointment might be if the pattern of sales for these rifle parts is so clear cut that intent to bypass the law is unmistakable, then the whole transaction is suspect and may still be construed as breaking the law. Intent therefore plays a big part in the whole scenario if the actions are so thinly veiled.

This gets me thinking of another scenario: Although very unlikely lets say a friend borrows a upper from me, adds his lower and goes target practicing out in a remote area of woods. Another fellow soon joins him at that same target practice area and during the course of the day conversing with the other shooter the guy brags about this hot lover he is have a affair with. He describes her in pretty good detail, especially the unique tattoo she has in her "down under" area. Then the guy describes her husband as a bald, fat couch potato that drinks too much all the time and is a all around looser that works at a local gas station the friend suddenly realises that this fellow is the one who his wife is having a affair with! Now my friend gets boiling mad and starts a fight with this guy. In the heat of the moment he grabs his rifle and shoots the guy dead. He then brushes out his foot steps and car tire impressions in the dust and leaves the scene thinking he has covered his tracks and nobody is going to be able to pin him for the murder He gets back home, cleans the upper very well (leaving no fingerprints), then thanks me for letting him use it and gives the upper back to me, none the wiser. Before too many days have passed I get a visit from a couple police detectives who take me down to headquarters for questioning. During that time one of them gets a warrant to search my house and comes up with the AR rifle. They test fire it and examine the bullet riflling against the bullet pulled from the victim. They also inspect some casings left at the crime scene. The bullet rifling and firing pin marks match my gun so now I am accused of murder and jailed without bail! I tell them I loaned my upper to a friend so they pull him in for questioning. They search his home for a AR lower but do not find one nor any 223 ammo. They are unable to pull any fingerprints from the upper and he denies even borrowing it! He was tested for gun powder residue but none was found (he probably scrubbed himself raw trying to make sure he would not test positive for residue and burned the clothing and shoes he wore that fateful day)! His cell phone records showed he was last pinged in the area of town closest to the murder scene but no proof any further because no cell tower reception that far into the woods! I was home alone all day but didn't have a witness so my lawyer advised me to accept a plea deal because my chances of getting a not guilty verdict were slim to none! Boy am I screwed! And all this time I thought he was a good friend!
P.S. Looking back, right about now I'm thinking I ought to become a writer! Thanks if you read the whole thing!
:eek:This is one reason I never loan out guns or computers..
 
No upper is registered or matched to any lower. There is no proof that any upper belongs to any lower. No uppers are numbered to match any lower. My FFL is selling complete lowers as well as complete uppers but not as kits. Priced separately. Plus he sells striped lowers. I have been buying rifle receivers and not just AR plus stripped pistol frames since July 1st. All being ran as "other" with no problem. My latest was a SIG P320 from a gun forum back east. He pulled the Fire Control Unit that has the serial number and sent that to my FFL. Then he sent me all the remaining parts. I just picked up my FCU today and it was run as "other". Brought it home and assemble the gun. No I-1639 BS.
This should apply to a pistol as well, correct? For example if I remove slide and sell my Glock frame to WA resident, will it be transferred as "other" firearm or as "handgun" since it was a handgun once before?
 
That "seems" like it would be fine. The lower he took off though would be the sticking point. I seems he would be stuck with lowers that had to always be either a rifle if that was how they originally were built and registered. Seems like it would be pointless. If an FFL really wants to help buyers get around the stupid new law just sell a lower that is an "other" and of course sell the accessories the buyer wishes. Then buyer can do as they please with the stuff later as the lower was sold as "other". Seems to be just begging for trouble down the road taking a rifle, taking it apart, then trying to do this. Like poking the bear (BATF & State) for no real benefit.
I wonder if this process of separating the uppers and lowers for purchases would void factory warranties? If the warranty stays intact, I can see where this would be a good way to buy a new rifle.
 
I wonder if this process of separating the uppers and lowers for purchases would void factory warranties? If the warranty stays intact, I can see where this would be a good way to buy a new rifle.
I would have to guess yes. If some shop gets a complete rifle from some maker, then parts it out, I can not see the maker honoring the warranty if they found this had been done. The buyer could I guess, if say the lower had a broken part, try just sending the lower back. Saying they took the stock and upper off to save on shipping it back? Same if it was the upper, say they took it off so they could send it back easier. As long as they did not tell the manufacturer what had been done.
It is so damn easy to put an AR together though I can't see any point in this. For those wanting to get around the stupid I-1639 it's dead simple to just buy either a striped or complete lower then put any upper you wish on it since the upper you can just mail order. Then you get exactly what you want too.
 
I would have to guess yes. If some shop gets a complete rifle from some maker, then parts it out, I can not see the maker honoring the warranty if they found this had been done. The buyer could I guess, if say the lower had a broken part, try just sending the lower back. Saying they took the stock and upper off to save on shipping it back? Same if it was the upper, say they took it off so they could send it back easier. As long as they did not tell the manufacturer what had been done.
It is so damn easy to put an AR together though I can't see any point in this. For those wanting to get around the stupid I-1639 it's dead simple to just buy either a striped or complete lower then put any upper you wish on it since the upper you can just mail order. Then you get exactly what you want too.
A shop cannot do that without a manufacturing license, and extra paperwork. An individual can, without anyone knowing do the exact same thing but technically they are manufacturing as well, by changing the type of firearm. (rifle to receiver)
 
Semantics but semantics matter as far as the law is concerned . Only a 07 manufacturer can manufacture. An individual is not manufacturing. Manufacturing is a process that requires an 07 manufacturers FFL and that excise taxes be paid. If an 01 FFL dealer assembles he is manufacturing. I know they do it all the time but they are also breaking the law every time they do it without paying the tax and attaining an 07 license . An end user assembles. He does not manufacturer unless he does so for sale then he is required to get a 07 manufacturers FFL license. The ATF considers an individual making a firearm for personal use to be a "maker" not a "manufacturer". The same holds true for NFA regulated items. A maker "makes" a form 1 silencer. He does not manufacturer one. And since only a "manufacturer" ( 02/07 SOT ) may repair completed silencers it is not legal for the "maker" to build new baffles, end caps etc for a silencer he wants to fix or modify even if he built it originally.
 
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Preface: I'm 64 now. I first got seriously into firearms 10 years ago. Handguns only. Never saw a need for long guns, then 2012-13 came along.

The AR 15 was completely foreign to me, only seen 'em on tables at the gun shows or gun mags. No interest, never fondled. At one of the shows at the EXPO Center I was ogling these nice looking complete uppers at a table. At that point I was starting to think I needed to get an AR. The gentleman at the table was explaining to me that I would buy everything from him but the lower and then go to another table to buy a lower and put it together myself. At the time I didn't relate to the fact the the guy with the complete uppers didn't have to have an FFL to do that. Are we saying now that in WA shops can just separate uppers from lowers and sell separately? Or shops building uppers will start springing up and FFL holders will supply a bunch of completed lowers for all the uppers?

Sometimes these so called "Leaders", or "Public Officials" or whatever they get called, sure look like complete "Morons".
 
A shop cannot do that without a manufacturing license, and extra paperwork. An individual can, without anyone knowing do the exact same thing but technically they are manufacturing as well, by changing the type of firearm. (rifle to receiver)




Correct. My purchases have been private sales and the seller does the work.
 
Probably could be the opposite of an AR, but, I ran into a situation about the whole "rifle into handgun/handgun into rifle" in the early '90's when I had an FFL. It was a Thompson Contender that had been originally sold as a rifle. Was a mess for awhile, until I (finally) talked to an BATF person who was familiar with the platform. I was amazed that several ATF folks didn't even know what a Contender was...

Haven't read the whole thread, but the current state of federal law is that you can convert a handgun to a rifle and back to a handgun as many times as you wish. If you have a firearm that was originally a rifle, i.e., it was manufactured as a rifle and not as a handgun, you cannot legally convert it to a handgun - if you put a barrel on it that is shorter than 16", then it is a short barreled rifle, not a handgun.

It was Thompson Center who took the ATF to court over converting a Contender to a rifle then back again, and they won. Previous to that court precedent, the ATF held that once a firearm was a rifle it could never be a handgun again. Now they know better.

Anyone interested in this history only has to google ATF and Thompson Center.

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Thanks for the link. I do remember the court case. It went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court if I recall correctly. I seem to remember one of the final arguments citing farmers and how they have fertilizer and diesel on the farm, but that doesn't mean they intend to make explosives, or something to that effect.
 

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