Washington AR kit trick to by-pass I-1639

[gmerkt]

Yesterday, I stopped in one of the local gun shops to see what was going on. One of my lead-in questions is, "How is business?" I know this owner reasonably well and he is pretty candid and informative. He said he is now transferring AR's as kits. He breaks down an AR into two main assemblies. He writes up the lower as "other" and transfers the "kit" same day. The buyer leaves with the parts unassembled. He told me he has consulted the ATF about this and they have told him he's walking a narrow line but as far as the feds are concerned, he's not breaking any laws. He said his license is granted and controlled by the ATF, not the state. In Wash., there is no authority for a state license to sell firearms. Some states have chosen to regulate firearms dealers. For example, California requires a licensee check system that requires FFL dealers to sign up. I don't if that state system regulates what goes on in dealer books. I think it's mainly a cross check on the existence of an FFL.

The process described above is a function of the loophole of lowers not being considered complete rifles, therefore they are not covered by I-1639. We'll have to wait and see how long this survives. This is not legal advice, merely information.

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[Unka-Boo]

If they came to him as complete rifles, he's doing it wrong.

 

[arakboss]

If they came to him as complete rifles, he's doing it wrong.

Once a rifle always a rifle?

 

[trevi]

Once a rifle always a rifle?

I heard something like, "you can only convert a rifle to a pistol ONCE and back to rifle, then it has to stay a rifle" and "SBRs have to remain SBRs." Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[User 1234]

A pistol made from a rifle is an SBR unless it was originally a pistol. A rifle made from a gun that was originally a pistol can be reconfigured into a pistol. Obviously a person has to be careful when switching back and forth. Some states also prohibit going back to a pistol from a rifle even if it was originally a pistol.

 

[Unka-Boo]

Once a rifle always a rifle?

Once a rifle always a rifle?

Yup...if he if offering "kits" as an add on to a stripped receiver, that would be fine. If he is getting complete rifles then separating them and selling the lowers as "other" that won't fly, to the best of my reccolection.

 

[slimmer13]

A local FFL is selling complete lowers and complete uppers. And alot of them match.

 

[rdb241]

A local FFL is selling complete lowers and complete uppers. And alot of them match.

No upper is registered or matched to any lower. There is no proof that any upper belongs to any lower. No uppers are numbered to match any lower. My FFL is selling complete lowers as well as complete uppers but not as kits. Priced separately. Plus he sells striped lowers. I have been buying rifle receivers and not just AR plus stripped pistol frames since July 1st. All being ran as "other" with no problem. My latest was a SIG P320 from a gun forum back east. He pulled the Fire Control Unit that has the serial number and sent that to my FFL. Then he sent me all the remaining parts. I just picked up my FCU today and it was run as "other". Brought it home and assemble the gun. No I-1639 BS.

 

[bbowl]

I heard something like, "you can only convert a rifle to a pistol ONCE and back to rifle, then it has to stay a rifle" and "SBRs have to remain SBRs." Correct me if I am wrong.

Completely wrong.. if it starts as a rifle it can never be a pistol. There's no counter in the receiver.... and you can add a pistol or rifle to the sbr registry and then remove it as many times as you want. Paying $200 each time...

 

[slimmer13]

No upper is registered or matched to any lower. There is no proof that any upper belongs to any lower. No uppers are numbered to match any lower.

For reals? Mind blown.

 

[SUPER X]

Might be good to post the titles less up front to avoid giving the anti more information and ideas.

 

[CastleRocker]

Probably could be the opposite of an AR, but, I ran into a situation about the whole "rifle into handgun/handgun into rifle" in the early '90's when I had an FFL. It was a Thompson Contender that had been originally sold as a rifle. Was a mess for awhile, until I (finally) talked to an BATF person who was familiar with the platform. I was amazed that several ATF folks didn't even know what a Contender was...

 

[kschmadeka]

The big question for me is, does buying a stripped lower sign you up for the lifetime background checks? All the other hoops I could stomach but not that one.

 

[jleavy1977]

Might be good to post the titles less up front to avoid giving the anti more information and ideas.

I was thinking the same thing

 

[rdb241]

The big question for me is, does buying a stripped lower sign you up for the lifetime background checks? All the other hoops I could stomach but not that one.

when ever you buy a fire arm any time for the rest of your life....you will have a background check. By purchasing a stripped lower and run as "other" gets you out of taking a safety course. Consent to access your medical records with out notifying you. They can do that any time they want to for any reason. So yes, you will have a life time of background checks. That will now never go away.

 

[rdb241]

I was thinking the same thing

I-1639 does not specify "other" complies in any way to all the provisions. So in order for that to happen. They have to go back to the ballot box. It was a people's bill and they just can't change it to suit them because there might be a loophole.

 

[wired]

I heard something like, "you can only convert a rifle to a pistol ONCE and back to rifle, then it has to stay a rifle" and "SBRs have to remain SBRs." Correct me if I am wrong.

Pistol to rifle and back is OK. Any SBR can be removed from the registry any time and it can revert back to what it was before either rifle or pistol. An SBR doesnt even need to be taken off the registry to sell as a title 1 firearm if configured as such but they like you to do that. An SBR is not like a machine gun. An SBR is only an SBR when it is configured as such with a short barrel etc. They like you to do a lot of stuff they can't enforce legally.


And no. A rifle that is transferred to the dealer as a rifle cannot be sold as "other" . Its a rifle and has a excise tax record and paper trail to attest to that.


And for eye candy a 9mm SBR. Your'e welcome

 

[arakboss]

Pistol to rifle and back is OK. Any SBR can be removed from the registry any time and it can revert back to what it was before either rifle or pistol. An SBR doesnt even need to be taken off the registry to sell as a title 1 firearm if configured as such but they like you to do that. An SVR is not like a machine gun. An SBR is only an SBR when it is configured as such with a short barrel etc. They like you to do a lot of stuff they can't enforce legally.


And no. A rifle that is transferred to the dealer as a rifle cannot be sold as "other" . Its a rifle and has a excise tax record and paper trail to attest to that.


And for eye candy a 9mm SBR. Your'e welcome

View attachment 623345

So how is dealer mentioned by OP getting the OK to split up rifles and sell lowers as an "other" firearm?

 

[wired]

So how is dealer mentioned by OP getting the OK to split up rifles and sell lowers as an "other" firearm?

He isnt. He either asked the ATF examiner the question wrong or the ATF examiner flubbed it completely. Ive seen it happen MANY times. If its not in writing from the tech branch it isnt real. Rifles are rifles, pistols are pistols and stripped lowers which have never been transferred are other. lowers that have been transferred as pistols or rifles and have excise tax payments paid as such by an O7 FFL ( the manufacturer ) are pistols or rifles forever ( unless you make a pistol into a rifle as the end user ) . One ATF agents misinformed opinion doesnt change that. Selling split up rifles to skirt the law is going to get the dealer in the state Pen. The feds dont care.

 

[rdb241]

He isnt. He either asked the ATF examiner the question wrong or the ATF examiner flubbed it completely. Ive seen it happen MANY times. If its not in writing from the tech branch it isnt real.

I understand the OP called ATF to ask the question. But we are talking State law here not Federal law. The SBR/pistol thing is a side note.