AR, Anyone? Who likes ARs here? Let's talk AR's

[wichaka]

Wow! That didnt take very long. I see we have some AR snobs in here now. I for one have shot some excellent examples of the AR platform that meet the "junk" definition above. Furthermore I Have been building using "junk" parts for years now and I have to say that DPMS in particular has routinely performed in an average way or better every time. If you want to parrot what the idiots say on AR15.com go ahead. It seems that every forum has its share of sheeple.

I'm happy for you, and I'm sure you'll have no problems either.

You said it well.........."I have to say that DPMS in particular has routinely performed in an average way or better every time."

If all you're looking for is "average", then average is all you can hope for. I hope all your goals in life aint average.......but if they are, you're sure to hit 'em!

 

[friskydingo]

As for Glocks, I think the angle of the grip is off for natural pointing.........the 1911 for me is so much better.
Whatcha think?

applause, your not a glock fan. neither am i. yes i will have to agree with you...

 

[berettamod96]

You want to show me a major industry that doesnt have quality issues from time to time? Chances are the company that produces your car or truck has had some sort of issues in the past. It would be wonderful if everything was produced with absolute consistency but in the manufacturing world this just isnt so. As for your LE experience, well that means nothing. I have known some very accomplished shooters or smiths who do LE and some real dumbasses in that field as well.

 

[friskydingo]

You want to show me a major industry that doesnt have quality issues from time to time? Chances are the company that produces your car or truck has had some sort of issues in the past. It would be wonderful if everything was produced with absolute consistency but in the manufacturing world this just isnt so. As for your LE experience, well that means nothing. I have known some very accomplished shooters or smiths who do LE and some real dumbasses in that field as well.

oo! oo! like the ones who have fake points!

yep the AR snobs have arrived.

 

[wichaka]

You don't know me, nor does anyone else on here. I have nothing to prove and nothing to gain by any post I make on here.

A question was posed, I answered it.

berettamod96 said;
I have known some very accomplished shooters or smiths who do LE and some real dumbasses in that field as well.

There are bad apples in every facet of life. Name one area that there is not?

I have not name called anyone during this discussion, nor will I with any discussion on here.

I'm sure that anyone on here that has experience in their given field of expertise also has likes and dislikes about the products they know about.

What's the difference here?

 

[berettamod96]

the difference is you are passing judgment on everything from a given company or companies. If you dont like it thats fine but to label it junk is completely absurd. Yes there is some real junk out there but in the AR market its so competitive that on the whole any differences are slight at best otherwise the companies dont survive. They have to evolve to meet the demands of their customers or they become extinct.

 

[wichaka]

Am not passing a blanket judgment blindly, it comes from hands on experience with the products on the bench, and putting a mic to them.

Here's what I see in the industry, a lot of gimmicky garb with an answer that has no question.

The oldest ploy in the industry........submit a product to the public, make the public believe they can't live without it, and go in for the monetary kill.......so to speak.

The AR and 1911 markets are a feeding frenzy. Those 2 platforms have the most aftermarket stuff out there. If it isn't being made, you can bet in short order, it will be.

As for the 1911, look at what the pros are using.......Leatham, Jarrett, and others. Granted, some stuff does not cross over from gaming to real life, but some things do........and those things are what we need to sit up and look at.
Those guys are looking for everything that will give them the edge over the next person, so they will win. They don't use gimmicky cheap junk garb.
One would be wise to look at how their pistols and rifles are set up.

Look at what the true operators in the Military are using, you don't see junk. Yes, it's top of the line stuff, it has to be, it's their life they are dealing with.

Yes, there is a difference between Military personnel and the casual plinker. Like I've said already, for the casual plinker the "average" stuff, and the Double Star lower will be fine.

I'm sorry if I come from the Military/LE side of things, and feel there's nothing but the best. Sorry if I came across strong about this subject, my apologies.

But I'd rather explain the price of quality, then settle for something less, and have someone come back to me wondering why I gave an approval for something that failed.

There's a reason why Double Star lowers are under 100.00, and most on the market are close and over 200.00 Yep, you can also get Aimpoint knock offs for next to nothing too.........but how will they hold up over the long haul?

Want a Yugo car?

 

[berettamod96]

I come from military and from the law enforcement side as well. My experience is slightly different with some of the stuff you mentioned but yes you are correct there is a lot of hype out there. I have been building and or competing since 1994 and I have seen sometimes drastic variance in the quality of some items. Even the venerable Colt and Smith and Wesson equipment out there has been plagued by inconsistencies in quality. As for the accessories well most of them are largely worthless. I happen to think that vertical hand grips are terribly stupid on ARs and the only real advantage is you can put a roll of toilet paper on them. You make some good points but as I have been saying the quality is variable over a given period of time. You do realize that DPMS for example means Defense Procurement Military Services right? This implies that they either have or are currently producing military grade equipment and contrary to your claim that the US military uses the state of the art in equipment this isnt always the case either. There is a bidding process involved which means that expense is just as important as performance.

 

[wichaka]

berettamod96 said;
You do realize that DPMS for example means Defense Procurement Military Services right? This implies that they either have or are currently producing military grade equipment.

Implying is one thing, actually doing is another.

Just because a company calls it self some sort of Military Service, doesn't mean it serves the Military. Another marketing ploy. DPMS does not supply anything AR/M4 to the Military.

Kinda like Springfield Armory, it's not the same Springfield Armory that was in service and owned by the U.S. during WW II. The name was open for biz use, and someone grabbed it up...........pretty good thinking eh?
Another good one is when GM quit making the Oldsmobile, but they left the name out there for someone to grab..........well someone grabbed the name, and now can use it as they see fit.

As of right now there are only 2 makers of AR/M4's that sell to and are accepted by the Military.........that is Colt and FN. And FN makes them under the Colt name. And there are only 2-3 makers of magazines that are currently being sold under contract to the Military Gov., Okay, FN, and I can't think of the other right off. If they have the 33710 number stamped on them, they are accepted Military mags, anything else is not up to par for Military use..............as per their own specs.

Go back on my any of the posts I have made here, and point out where I said anything about the Military using state of the art equipment only..............I never said such a thing. What I said, is look at what the true operators are using...........didn't say that any of that stuff was issued by the U.S. The true operators will look over what the U.S. issues, and if it aint good enough, go out and get their own. How many stories have we all heard about families and friends sending loved ones equipment over in the sand box because it was requested?

 

[wichaka]

Another thing one needs to know, is there any many low grade companies out there that pick up others rejects and stamp their own name on them and sell them as their own.

Like I said..........if you want an AR plinker, most of those low grade lowers will work fine. But if you're like me who runs 5,000+ rounds a year thru them, you may want to look for something with a bit better quality.

 

[emanon]

I have a Bushmaster with the 16 inch barrel. I'd like to pick up a collapsible stock, any suggestions? I've also been considering switching all the plastic over from black to OD... If/when I do get the new stock, etc I'd appreciate having someone with experience help me through switching everything over.

 

[wichaka]

My shop is open to anyone here on the forum. Come on up, and I'll walk you thru it..........no charge.

 

[skud_dusty]

... being carried by any serious operator........

You mean like this guy?

As for the 1911, look at what the pros are using.......Leatham, Jarrett, and others. Granted, some stuff does not cross over from gaming to real life, but some things do........and those things are what we need to sit up and look at.
Those guys are looking for everything that will give them the edge over the next person, so they will win. They don't use gimmicky cheap junk garb.
One would be wise to look at how their pistols and rifles are set up.

You do realize that Todd Jarrett uses Para Ordnance right? The leading name in cheap gimmicky garbage 1911s? I've never handled a Para that didn't feel like a steaming pile of bubblegum.

Opinions are like bubblegums...everyone has one, and they all stink. Bushmasters and other "cheap" brands seem to work fine for the vast majority.

 

[friskydingo]

I have a Bushmaster with the 16 inch barrel. I'd like to pick up a collapsible stock, any suggestions? I've also been considering switching all the plastic over from black to OD... If/when I do get the new stock, etc I'd appreciate having someone with experience help me through switching everything over.

many people like the magpul CTR or new MOE. i like the vltor emod.... there is the sopmod as well from lmt. cant go wrong with any of those.

 

[wichaka]

Yep, trained with Jarrett for a few days a couple years back. He's sponsored by Para, but his guns aren't off the shelf stuff.

I like the CTR stock......seems like most others require a small loan to afford them.....UGH!

 

[skud_dusty]

Exactly my point, he doesn't use off the shelf Para guns because they are complete garbage. What the pros use isn't a good representation of quality. Endorsements don't mean anything if you have a bubblegumty product.

 

[wichaka]

Me thinks you got something backwards...........what the pros use IS a good representation of quality, because they don't use junk.

Take Doug Koenig who shoots for S&W. Most of the guts in his 1911's are made by EGW.

 

[skud_dusty]

I'm not talking about Doug Koenig, I'm talking about Todd Jarrett. He represents Para Ordnance. Para Ordnance is complete bubblegum when it comes to quality. Me thinks you don't remember what you said in a previous post.

"As for the 1911, look at what the pros are using.......Leatham, Jarrett, and others. Granted, some stuff does not cross over from gaming to real life, but some things do........and those things are what we need to sit up and look at."

Jarrett shoots a "Para Ordnance" pistol. According to your logic, that means Para Ordnance makes a fine 1911. The truth is, they don't. Para Ordnance 1911s are worthless piles of bubblegum.

 

[wichaka]

I agree, Para does not put out a good product.........and I know exactly what I said in my previous post.
By the way Para is moving to the states by October........said they are doing it for better quality control. Even they admit they are having problems.

But you're not getting what I'm saying.

Take Koenig, he shoots for S&W, yet the guts of his guns are not made by S&W.........look at what the pros are using..........now you get it?

Jarretts guns are full of non Para quality parts.........look at what the pros use.........now you get it?

They may use the frame and slide from the maker, but the guts are high quality parts, not junk...........now you get it?

One has to look under the hood of any gun on the market, quit looking at the bells and whistles............now you get it?

Leatham runs with Springfield, yet his guns are tuned by the custom shop........they aint out of the box, off the shelf guns. Look at what the pros use........now you get it?

The pros don't use extended slide stops, MIM parts and other gimmicky garb.......now you get it?

I knew exactly what I was saying..........

Most of my shop work over the last 5 years has been changing out junk stock parts, for quality stuff. I wouldn't bet my life on most guns coming out of the box without a good reliability work over.

 

[emanon]

My shop is open to anyone here on the forum. Come on up, and I'll walk you thru it..........no charge.

Thanks. When you say "shop" are you referring to a business or a personal space? Also, where are you in WA?