AR-15 reloading question

[bballer182]

My lot of WC844 pushes my 55gr FMJBT @ ~2700fps out of a 16" CAR with 24.0gr. A little weak. I haven't messed with my 223 too much. My 458 and other projects consume most of my time. 55gr bullets should be up around the 3000-3100fps range. I've seen others post data of WC844 using ~27gr getting around the 3100fps mark.

 

[lamrith]

Thanks for the reply Deadshot!

A friend that reloads actually guided me on 223 reloading. I had not loaded rifle and we spent an evening at his home showing me rifle prep and loading. He pulled the data out of his book, that initial batch of 20rnds was the 23.8g load of WC844 from my 8# jug.

These felt soft firing and would not consistently cycle my bolt and load the next round. The bolt was grabbing the rounds by the ejector groove and then feeding them until they jammed. Primers did not show any signs of flowing or signs of high pressure to the cases. Those rounds misfed/jammed every other round. After 10 rounds of that problem, I removed the magazine, and fed a fresh one with 5rounds of factory ammo and fired it all off with no issues. I did that to verify proper weapon function. Then I fired the last 10 rounds of my loads with the same dismall jamming every other round.

At that point I had a baseline and my press set-up so I loaded as in my original post with higher loads. I had heard that the pull down powder could vary widely in strength, and given the soft feeling and not cycling well I believe that my batch is on the weak side.
When I went to the range I fired the 1st two rounds each manually, and checked the cases/primers after each round and all looked good. Then I would load and shoot 3, check and then the final 5. all looked very good and the gun was cycling well. Though as mention not lock the bolt back.

A friend just brought up a good point, I am going to weigh my bullets when I get home, just to verify they are 62g. A Chrono is also on the buy list...

Just out of curiosity, where did you get your load data? Yes, it's pretty much accepted that WC844 is the same as H335 but Hodgdon doesn't show any loads as "stiff" as what you posted for the 62 gr bullets. They show a max of 21.4 for the only 62 gr bullet they list.

There is another cause of a bolt not locking back on last round. It's called "bouncing" which can be caused by too hot a load. Have you chronographed any of these loads yet? This will at least reveal whether the load is too hot or not. You should expect speeds in the 2700-2900 fps range with the 62 gr bullet. If you're in the 3200+ range you could be headed for a really battered BCG and a broken cam pin or two.

As for "uniformity" of 844, if you bought it in an 8# jug, expect it all to be "uniform" within the jug. If you have several jugs, I would consider cross mixing the jugs much like a painter who mixes all the paint in a case so there is no variation in color from can to can.

Usually "pull down powders" are collected in huge quantities and then individually packaged so variations would be more likely from "Year collected" than from jug to jug.

 

[TylerDurden]

I may have missed it somewhere. How new is this gun? What length is the barrel? Are you full length sizing the brass?

I have had cycling problems with two of my AR's. My Varmiter 24" gun would not cycle using IMR 4198 and a 45gr bullet. I was advised to use a slower powder due to the longer barrel in relation to the gas system of the gun. I found that H335 worked the best out of that particular gun. I also went to a little heavier bullet.

Fast forward a couple of years later; I purchased a carbine length AR. When I tried to use the ammo for my Varmiter. They would not cycle. I tried various lubes thinking it was a friction problem. I finally called the manufacturer of the gun and told the tech what was going on. He was the one who directed me to try IMR 3031. I have put 100's of rounds through that gun since switching powder and haven't had a single failure to anything.

I would like to see a picture of the ammo that is not working. It may be something in the sizing of the brass. Have you checked the case length? Just a few thoughts!!

 

[lamrith]

The gun is about 2-3months old, 400 rounds thru it. SAA upper with 16" non lined barrel, BCM BCG, SAA lower with PSA lower build kit(includes buffer).

I do not have the length onhand for the original 23.8g loads. The ammo that did not cycle and feed was weeks ago and the brass has already been fed back into the production line I believe, but I can check. The brass from weeks ago was trimmed and sized I believe we went with 1.760" case length and 2.228"OAL, when they would jam, the round was not even fully out of the magazine, and the BCG would end up into the side of the case.

All of my loads last week with 24-25.5g drops were full length sized and trimmed to 1.740" (Prepped for future use with RCBS Xdie) All the rounds are set to 2.224-2.224AOL, 1.881-1.887" to shoulder via Comparator. The rounds I just shot all seemed to work well, with the one caveat that they did not lock the bolt back on an empty mag.

I need to find someone with a chrono so that I can test velocity.

 

[deadshot2]

A Chrono is also on the buy list...

Until you get one there is a way to give a good "estimate" on your bullet speed.

To do so you need some basic information. The Ballistic Coefficient of the bullet, the bullet length, a range where you have two different target ranges, and a target with a vertical line marked at 1" intervals.

To get ready, load up your test batch of ammo using your desired load. Before going to the range, visit a website like JBM ballistics Trajectory Calculator JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

or download the simpler Point Mass Ballistic's Solver which Brian Litz recommends Download Point Mass Balistics Solver Free - Easy-to-use ballistics calculator - Softpedia

Enter all the known data of bullet dia, length, BC, and then create a chart. Using a 100 yard zero, then record the various drop in inches for the longer range you have available. 200 yards would probably be very workable for the .223. Enter various speeds starting well below your "estimated speed" and then record the drop at 200 yards. Increase the speed in the calculator and then record the new drop. Keep going until you have a "drop chart" for all the speeds you might consider possible for your load.

Go to the range, zero your rifle carefully at 100 yards. Worry more about "center of group" rather than group size.

Then shoot 10 rounds or so at the 200 yard target which should have a vertical line, marked off in 1" intervals, zero at the top and increasing to the extent of your target. Aim at the top of the line (measuring stick) and DO NOT CHANGE your sights/scope from it's 100 yard zero. Aim and shoot carefully and when done, observe how many inches the center of the group dropped from your aim point. Go to the chart you created using the Ballistic's calculators, and viola, you have a speed that is probably more accurate than some cheap chronographs. Best of all, you now know how YOUR bullet will perform in flight.

My chronograph needs to go to the hospital but last week I used this very process. The results were so accurate that I merely adjusted the scope for the 5 MOA I calculated and bingo, first shot on the target was right in the middle of the bullseye.

The method is a little old school and time consuming but it works for anyone that doesn't have a chronograph yet.

If you have a super accurate rifle, you can use the same method to test a whole range of charges, one shot per and then just measure the drop for each shot.

 

[lamrith]

Mine is not super accurate (well maybe some of that is me too..??) I want to say she is about 2moa. I bought a cheap barrel, so I cannot fault the equipment for my choice in components..

I will have to look into getting to the range and trying that I fear @ 200yrds my groups will be a bit large making drop measurement a challenge. It will take some research, but that is the fun part.

 

[deadshot2]

Mine is not super accurate (well maybe some of that is me too..??) I want to say she is about 2moa. I bought a cheap barrel, so I cannot fault the equipment for my choice in components..

I will have to look into getting to the range and trying that I fear @ 200yrds my groups will be a bit large making drop measurement a challenge. It will take some research, but that is the fun part.

Just draw lines from opposing holes. Select holes at the top of the group and draw a line to the hole directly opposite at the bottom. Keep doing this, connecting pairs of holes. Then look where the lines tend to intersect. You'll pretty much get a sense for the "center" of he group.

Or you can download a free copy of he program "On Target". It kind of does this all for you. All you need is a scanned image of a target or a picture from a digital camera. Slick program for free. Even if you pay for it it's only $12 or so and gives you the ability to ID the "Center" of a large group.


Here's an example of a target I measured with On Target using a picture of the group.


Notice how it computed an Average To Center? Even though the group was spread, it was possible to also show how far off the point of aim the group was (not shown on this example but is shown on working "pane" of the program.

You can download it here On Target Precision Calculator

PS: This was a 5-shot group with my .308 using CFE223 and a 168gr Nosler Custom Competition bullet. Three nice "snuggied up" holes in the center made me real happy.

 

[lamrith]

Deadshot, I will DL that software. I have the targets from last weekend that I can start experimenting with.

I take it I am better off with 100yrd versus 50yrd. More spread and greater drop variance?

I just stumbled on this thread, which I think is what my local friend based his start point on...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=598890

 

[deadshot2]

Deadshot, I will DL that software. I have the targets from last weekend that I can start experimenting with.

I take it I am better off with 100yrd versus 50yrd. More spread and greater drop variance?

I just stumbled on this thread, which I think is what my local friend based his start point on...

223 WC844 Load Data with Range Results - Calguns.net

I always like to do any tests like this at the longest practical distance for the round. Short ranges are pretty much point-blank for many calibers and the bullet hasn't really started to drop that much. Much easier to see the drop associated with the bullet characteristics when using longer distances.

More than one shooter has gone out, shot a nice tiny group at 50-100 yards only to find that it opens up greatly at 200-300 yards.

As for the thread you linked, I've noticed more than a few that are shooting this weight of 844. I find it interesting that the H335 recommendation from Hodgdon is so much less than what this "same as" powder is being loaded to.

That said, TM43-0001-23, the Small Arms Manual, shows a load of 26.1 gr WC844 to be the "design load" for M855 (Green Tip) ammo using the 62 gr bullet. That develops 55,000 psi and 3025 fps using the military method of chronographing with the instruments 78 feet away from the muzzle. Using correction programs, this would indicate a much faster velocity, closer to 3100 fps. The pressure is right at the SAAMI max for .223 so this load should be treated the same as a MAX load and carefully worked up to.

I find it not all that uncommon to find variations from "commercial powders" to "Military Powders". The military likes to add anti-fouling agents as well as flash suppressing additives, both of which could call for more powder in the load than just plain powders of the same base.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Great info, deadshot

 

[lamrith]

I always like to do any tests like this at the longest practical distance for the round. Short ranges are pretty much point-blank for many calibers and the bullet hasn't really started to drop that much. Much easier to see the drop associated with the bullet characteristics when using longer distances.

More than one shooter has gone out, shot a nice tiny group at 50-100 yards only to find that it opens up greatly at 200-300 yards.

As for the thread you linked, I've noticed more than a few that are shooting this weight of 844. I find it interesting that the H335 recommendation from Hodgdon is so much less than what this "same as" powder is being loaded to.

That said, TM43-0001-23, the Small Arms Manual, shows a load of 26.1 gr WC844 to be the "design load" for M855 (Green Tip) ammo using the 62 gr bullet. That develops 55,000 psi and 3025 fps using the military method of chronographing with the instruments 78 feet away from the muzzle. Using correction programs, this would indicate a much faster velocity, closer to 3100 fps. The pressure is right at the SAAMI max for .223 so this load should be treated the same as a MAX load and carefully worked up to.

I find it not all that uncommon to find variations from "commercial powders" to "Military Powders". The military likes to add anti-fouling agents as well as flash suppressing additives, both of which could call for more powder in the load than just plain powders of the same base.

Wow.
Awesome info thanks! That makes sense on the additives.. basically the 844 is less potent per g

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[deadshot2]

Wow.
Awesome info thanks! That makes sense on the additives.. basically the 844 is less potent per g

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Please understand that I merely suggested this "could" be why. I arrived at this by reading through the TM and comparing all the other commonly used calibers, M-1 Carbine, 30-06, 7.62x51, 9mm, and found that all the spec'd loads were more generous than the published loads for the supposedly "same" powders.

As always, one should proceed with caution and work UP their loads rather than starting too high and then looking for a load that doesn't shear the lugs off the bolt

 

[lamrith]

Please understand that I merely suggested this "could" be why. I arrived at this by reading through the TM and comparing all the other commonly used calibers, M-1 Carbine, 30-06, 7.62x51, 9mm, and found that all the spec'd loads were more generous than the published loads for the supposedly "same" powders.

As always, one should proceed with caution and work UP their loads rather than starting too high and then looking for a load that doesn't shear the lugs off the bolt

No worries there, to steal a TV quote: "I like living."

Trick now is coming up with a start point for each new jug of powder that finds a point that is not to high for h335 and not to low to cycle if I have a jug like this again..

Skimming my Lee second edition, H335 powder:
63 grain Jacketed
22.5start, 2820fps, 25.0max, 3051max, 50kCUP, 2.200OAL
69grain Jacketed
22.0start, 2801fps, 24.0max, 2960fps, 49500CUP, 2.235OAL

If I start 23g again with the next jug I buy I should be midline of those and safe.

 

[lcb97269]

Very light charge. Could also be the brass as Remington has had a lot of recalls lately and I have personal experience with their 308 virgin brass that lasted one time and when reloaded I could break the bullets off along with the neck because it wasn't annealed. They are not the company they used to be. Beware because their stuff can make you hurt in more ways that one.

Btw, I didn't bother to talk to them about it as I feel that someone who burns me will burn someone else, refund or not. The brass will be disassembled and sold as the scrap it is and I will eat the cost. I am sure they will be happy not to have to refund me for 500 rnds and I will be happy never to deal with them again while they rip other unsuspecting people off.

 

[lamrith]

Ahhh Much better.. I finally have some actual data and results.

Went out to a local shooting spot in the woods, brought the new chrono and got to use it for the 1st time. It survived with no bullet holes too! I was not able to put up paper targets and get solid accuracy data, but I now have Factory and hand load velocity data AND a load that works and is locking the slide back on empty.

I started by shooting 10rnds of my factory ammo.
Aguilla 55g 223 ammo.
Hi 2917fps
Lo 2818fps
Avg 2859fps
Spread: 99fps

50 Handloads, 62g Armscor, 24.8g WC844, CCI400 primers, 1.881-1.887" to shoulder
Hi 2710
Lo 2599
Avg 2654
Spread: 111fps

As mentioned I did not have paper out to do true accuracy measurements, but I was dead on with 1st shot on 4" shotgun clay @ 150yrds. So at least as accurate as the factory loads which throw 3" groups @ 100yrds. It might be a few weeks before I can get out to range and get measurable group numbers. The gun cycled very well though through the 50 rounds using 2 different mags checking empty mag function.

I have room before I get to factory fps, which is a good thing. I am eager to see just how these 62g look on paper at this velocity out of my 16" 1:9 barrel, then start adjusting fps & OAL.
I am running a progressive press, so OAL varies a bit, I am primarily building for plinking ammo, so I may just leave it as is. Long term maybe buy a single stage to make precision loads if I get a barrel worth building custom rounds for.

 

[vertical ascent]

I finally went out and tested my new loads over the weekend. Note to begin, my factory Aguilla 223 ammo feeds and cycles perfectly, always locks the bolt back on empty. I tried American eagle ammo and it had a few missfeeds out of 40rounds.

They were much better than the previous load which had numerous misfeeds/fail to feed Due to the bolt not fully cycling to grab the next round cleanly. WC844(H335)@23.8g, Armscore 62g

Loads (All using Armscore 62g boat tails and CCI#400 primers):
10: 24g
10: 24.5g
20: 25g
10:25.5g

All of these round cycled the gun well, all were equally accurate with the 25g seeming to have a slight edge. However these rounds would not lock the bolt back on last round. The primers are not showing any gross signs of over pressure, nor is the brass. I have heard the pull down wc844 can vary widely in power, so I am unsure how much farther I should push it. My book does not have H335 data for 62g, and knowing that WC844 can have wide variances has me concerned. I am chambered in true 5.56, not 223, so the chamber is made for higher pressures. I do not have a Chrono yet, still trying to save $ to get one into the budget.

Does anyone have some experience with the WC844 that can give me some guidance as to experience/loads with it? I am switching lube in the gun, to see if that helps at all.

Here is the official Hodgdon website for load datas for all if the Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester powders. There is a data for H335 utilizng a different 62 grain bullet.

<broken link removed>

 

[lamrith]

Here is the official Hodgdon website for load datas for all if the Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester powders. There is a data for H335 utilizng a different 62 grain bullet.

<broken link removed>

I have already checked Hogden data, not even close to the WC844, least not my jug. The common rule is to use the H335 to start with and work up, and I would recommend that to anyone new to the powder or starting to load from a new Jug. Some people even recommend if you buy multiple jugs at once that you mix them all together so that they all balance out and are consistent. Then pick a jug, and work up a load like normal, but then that load would be good for all the jugs as long as you are not trying to run the razors edge on max load.

What deadshot was able to research and I have found thru testing is that (at least my 8# jug) is not even close to H335 in terms of potency. One of the sources he found noted military manual showing 26.1g drop. That said, Always start low and work up as these WC844 jugs can vary considerably batch to batch.

Using 62g Armscor bullets, with my jug, 23.8g-24.5g barely cycled the weapon and would not lock back the bolt on empty. I have upped to 24.8-25.5g and it is running better. I have only been able to shoot the 24.8 over the chrono, so I need to make some 25 & 25.5 loads again and see how they run out. Velocities as show above are still below factory spec, so I have more room to trickle up the load.

 

[deadshot2]

I am running a progressive press, so OAL varies a bit,

This will happen even on precision single stage presses using $100+ seating dies ---------

IF

You are measuring to the tip (Meplat) of the bullet. Since almost all seating dies contact the bullet at or near the ogive, I would suggest that everyone check OAL consistency using a "Comparator" rather than just a caliper, and measuring from cartridge base to tip. Comparators will yield far more consistent measurements as bullets vary in length from ogive to tip. Since it's the Ogive that comes in contact with the rifling first, then a consistent measurement here means that the "jump" is more consistent. THAT's a factor in accuracy, not where the tip is. If it will fit in the magazine that's all that's really important.

Hornady sells a kit for your caliper that will allow you to measure both bullet base to ogive but also case head to ogive for just under $40. Better to invest in one of these and get accurate measurements than to curse the progressive for inconsistent OAL's, then find out that you get the same from your new single stage press.:huh:

 

[lamrith]

Dead - Yup exactly! The measurements I gave above are the measurements from the comparator.

The rounds are running right around 2.221" OAL, but 1.881-1.887" to the ogive using the Hornady comparator...

 

[rem700]

I'm just getting started loading for .223/5.56. I started with 22.4 gr of H335 under a 55 gr. Hornady V-Max, CCI 400 primers in Winchester cases. All rounds cycle well so far. OregonBuzz, that may give you an idea of a place to start with H335 to get good extraction. NWdrifter, thanks for your post. I will try to work up some loads incrementally to your 24.5 and see how they do with these components in this rifle. To all posters, thanks for the helpful input to a new (to this round) reloader.