Poll: AR-15 purchasing poll

[davidd101]

does any one out there have inexpensive ammo 223 for a colt ar 15

 

[drand]

I would expect right around $2k

 

[Gunner3456]

Some things you just have to experience firsthand.

Spend the coin and attend a Pat Rogers course.

Not sure where you are getting the "air of superiority" vibe.

If you can't distinguish the difference between a Delton and a Colt, Noveske, or LMT then there really isn't anything left to be said.

What would your qualifications and details of your training have to do with this?

You're the one who brought up "experience" and training without ever, in either of your posts, offering specifics about why my Del-Ton (that's how it's spelled, btw) that's approaching 3k rounds without a hiccup and will still shoot sub MOA isn't a satisfactory weapon for someone on a budget.

You haven't offered any details as to why, specifically, one brand you mentioned is "better" than another. Since my Del-Ton has proven to shoot 3k rounds without a hiccup at sub MOA, just how much "better" can another brand be especially considering the price?

I have several AR's and some are expensive. Those on a budget may need to know that there's a perfectly serviceable AR out there for $750.

You just deal in innuendo and an air of superiority without backing it up with one single fact. If your intent is to educate people, why not get busy and do that with fact-specific reasons why some expensive guns are "better?"

My $1,600 Colt sits in the safe because it likes to jam too often. It has about 500 frustrating rounds through it. Want to buy it?

 

[gunnoob75]

Three thousand rounds is NOT a high round count.

For 90% of people on this forum, you won't know a difference from one AR to another, so just buy whatever you like. It's that simple.

Those of you who want the best, go with the brands above.

You can build a BCM rifle for pretty cheap. But not 700 cheap, obviously.

 

[Gunner3456]

Three thousand rounds is NOT a high round count.

For 90% of people on this forum, you won't know a difference from one AR to another, so just buy whatever you like. It's that simple.

Those of you who want the best, go with the brands above.

You can build a BCM rifle for pretty cheap. But not 700 cheap, obviously.

Good and fair answer.

 

[MountainBear]

The OP asked what factors influenced your choice of AR's. If you like cheap AR's, why? If you like a more expensive AR, again, why? Stop complaining about other people's choices and defend yours. That's helpful. Arguing isn't in this case.

 

[Gunner3456]

The OP asked what factors influenced your choice of AR's. If you like cheap AR's, why? If you like a more expensive AR, again, why? Stop complaining about other people's choices and defend yours. That's helpful. Arguing isn't in this case.

I believe I defended (or stated) my reasons why my cheaper Del-Ton AR has worked well for me, and why my much more expensive Colt hasn't.

I believe that some of those who have insisted that only the expensive ones "will do" have failed to give reasons for the opinion - especially technical reasons.

For instance, so far no one has come aboard and stated that a Del-Ton didn't shoot well or that it continually broke, nor has anyone told how a Colt far outlived and outperformed a Del-Ton in use.

I can't find any reason posted here as to why an expensive AR is actually worth (what's in it - what am I getting for my money) more than a cheaper one.

I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that the reasons haven't been articulated.

$.02

 

[gunnoob75]

There are a lot of things that make the more expensive rifles worth the money.

What you end up with with the "tier 1" rifles is dependability.

MPI bolts, HPT Barrels/Chambers, correct barrel material for durability, correct material/profile buffer tubes... Proper carrier key staking, and castle nut staking. The list is not short.

The question, is weather the average shooter will notice the difference. Does a "milspec" buffer tube make a difference? To some people, yeah. To most? No.

Do people NEED what the military has tested to find is the BEST steel available for the barrel? No, they don't. In fact, most people won't put enough rounds down range to even shoot out a bad barrel. But some people do.

MPI and Shot Peened bolts are MILES more reliable. And HPT ensures your barrel can handle the pressure's of hot ammo.

There is an advantage to the top tier rifles. You just need to decide if you want them, or will even use them.

 

[MountainBear]

Joe, if you keep making sense, I won't be able to argue with you. Where's the fun in that?

 

[gunnoob75]

 

[Murphy]

You're the one who brought up "experience" and training without ever, in either of your posts, offering specifics about why my Del-Ton (that's how it's spelled, btw) that's approaching 3k rounds without a hiccup and will still shoot sub MOA isn't a satisfactory weapon for someone on a budget.

You haven't offered any details as to why, specifically, one brand you mentioned is "better" than another. Since my Del-Ton has proven to shoot 3k rounds without a hiccup at sub MOA, just how much "better" can another brand be especially considering the price?

I have several AR's and some are expensive. Those on a budget may need to know that there's a perfectly serviceable AR out there for $750.

You just deal in innuendo and an air of superiority without backing it up with one single fact. If your intent is to educate people, why not get busy and do that with fact-specific reasons why some expensive guns are "better?"

My $1,600 Colt sits in the safe because it likes to jam too often. It has about 500 frustrating rounds through it. Want to buy it?

I'm not sure why you seem to have an axe to grind.

You first stated that you could not see the difference between a delton and a more expensive AR. My comment was to attend a Pat Rogers course and experience the differences firsthand. His courses are extremely hard on carbines and lower tier AR's don't survive the first day of the course while the more expensive tier one AR's do. This same scenario unfolds in just about every carbine course out there.

There are many reasons why a tier one rifle is more likely to perform better than a lower tier AR and wakejoe touched on a few of the differences.

If your idea of owning an AR is to put less than 100 rounds down range at a range session and/or shooting less than a few hundred rounds a year then a tier 2 or tier 3 rifle will suit you just fine.

On the other hand if you shoot your AR alot or you depend upon your rifle due to work or home defense you may want to look into a tier one rifle.

This isn't to say that a tier one rifle won't let you down. You stated that your Colt malfunctions. It happens to ANY mechanical product. Tier one rifles seem to have less issues than the other tier 2 or 3 rifles.

Please don't just take my word or some of the other posters words for it. Do some research and see what you find. An excellent source is the 10-8 and lightfighter forums. The majority of the top tier trainers in the United States all seem to congregate at those two sites and all seem to agree that there is a discernable difference between the tiers and it also has been my experience as well.

 

[tionico]

OKm so some of you guys put forward the make and model of YOUR favourites, other just referred to "my rifle".

How about those of you who really like what you've got, and said WHY you do (much of it makes sense, coming from a guy..me.. who has been around mechanical things all his life) post some contact information so we who are looking can easily find these outfits and see what they're really about?

No snark-factor here, really.. help us who are reading, and with NO experience in these guns, find some good specific directions to head off in, so we don't make the same mistakes some have... and end up with an expensive gun sitting in the safe cause the dumb thing won't eat ammo when we say "go".

Looking for solid direction here.. I like much of what I've read so far, precisely the sort of info I want to learn about before making such a purchase.

Some name brands who make high quality in other types of guns don't seem to "get it' when it comes to "black and ugly" guns. Colt, making a problem child? Amazing....

 

[tionico]

Thanks, Murphy, NOW you're making sense and contributing solid information.

Links to the sources you mention?

I am one who would like to research further. Tier one, two, three... makes sense. Often you get what you pay for... often you do not. I'd like to tweak that continuum in my favour. I only want to buy ONE.... but I want it to be a good one that will last for a long time.

 

[MountainBear]

<broken link removed>
I have a version of the patrolman's carbine. The difference is that I requested a carry handle upper, rather than a flat-top with a BUIS. I run an ACOG on top of my carry handle. It makes it easier, as all it takes to transfer from irons to the ACOG is a shift of my cheek weld. Like I've said in a previous post, the enidine buffer and PWS comp/flash hider make it as soft shooting as anything I've shot in the AR platform. The Jard trigger is nice and crisp. The fit is well done and doesn't rattle. The CAA grip and butt-stock are nice as MOE parts. I did change the front handguard to Magpul and may eventually change the grip and butt-stock, but don't feel a need to change them to make the gun comfortable. The ceramic coating has been flawless, even though its still in the break-in. I expect nothing less after break in. The accuracy on this gun with irons, offhand, was 1.5" at 50 yards (10 rounds). It beat the accuracy on my last 20" Bushmaster by almost an inch, even though the barrel on the Next Gen is 4" shorter. I have had several AR's now. They have ranged from cheap home-built kits to DPMS to Bushmaster. All have worked, but I can tell the difference in the sound, the feel, the accuracy, and the reliability between those and my NextGen. Plus, buying locally is a good thing.

 

[Gunner3456]

There are a lot of things that make the more expensive rifles worth the money.

What you end up with with the "tier 1" rifles is dependability. Then why the heck is my Colt such a POS?

MPI bolts,

MPI will show only surface cracks, and I can do that at home. The technology is ancient and simple.

HPT Barrels/Chambers, And, you can do that yourself if you are tired of having all of your barrels split on you - dang that gets old. I have SO many split barrels around here I'm planning on retiring on the scrap metal value.

correct barrel material for durability, I would like to have a definition of "correct barrel material for durability." My Del-Ton has a hard chrome lined chrome moly barrel which shows no sign of erosion after about 3k rounds. I believe that any barrel will need replacing at 5k rounds.

correct material/profile buffer tubes... Proper carrier key staking, and castle nut staking. The list is not short. "correct" is rather nebulous. If my Del-Ton isn't "correct" why hasn't it broken?

The question, is weather the average shooter will notice the difference. Does a "milspec" buffer tube make a difference? To some people, yeah. To most? No. Good point.

Do people NEED what the military has tested to find is the BEST steel available for the barrel? No, they don't. In fact, most people won't put enough rounds down range to even shoot out a bad barrel. But some people do. Good point.

MPI and Shot Peened bolts are MILES more reliable. And HPT ensures your barrel can handle the pressure's of hot ammo. I'm going to throw my AR in the trash today. I didn't know I was in such danger.

There is an advantage to the top tier rifles. You just need to decide if you want them, or will even use them.

I haven't been convinced that the average user needs it.

 

[gunnoob75]

I don't consider Colt to be a Tier 1 gun. I might upset some people with that, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. LMT makes a much more reliable carbine for the end user, and the BCM parts in mine have held up fantastically.

MPI is a much more thurough test than eyeballing for cracks. MPI will show you ANY imperfection. More to the point, Companies who MPI test their bolts, throw out the one's with imperfections. Companies that DON'T test them, just put them in rifles and assume they're good to go.

High pressure testing, again, is a test. Buying from ____ Company, I know that the barrel will hold up to anything. With a Stag/Olympic/whatever barrel, there could be surface cracks or imperfections that you can't see, and one faulty round is all it takes to push it over the edge. It's just reassurance.

Barrel material should be "11595E" Steel. This is what the Military has decided is the best, most durable steel for the M4 platform. Weather you believe the same thing or not, is up to you. Some chromoly is easier to work with, so gives you more consistency in the rifling. Other steels are just plain more accurate (Stainless). It's all about what YOU think is right for your rifle. If you're only getting 5k rounds per barrel, that's evidence right there. BCM barrel should go 20+ thousand.

Carrier key staking, and especially castle nut staking, are the biggest areas that weapons go down. Talk to any carbine-class instructor and ask them what goes down the most. Your DelTon hasn't been run hard enough to shake any of that loose. You said yourself 3k rounds.

When I said "Miles more reliable", I think I should have said "Dependable". The extra steps the factory takes ENSURES that the rifle will not fail due to parts failure.

But I need to stress, not everyone needs this. My rifles are built to go bang. It will never hold a .5MOA group at 100 yards, but I don't need it to. What I DO need, is for it to be relied upon when I need it. If I get lost for a few years in some Dusty country, jungle, forest, or middle of the damn ocean, my rifle better not be what lets me down.

 

[Gunner3456]

I don't consider Colt to be a Tier 1 gun. I might upset some people with that, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. LMT makes a much more reliable carbine for the end user, and the BCM parts in mine have held up fantastically.

Consider as you wish!

MPI is a much more thurough test than eyeballing for cracks. MPI will show you ANY imperfection. More to the point, Companies who MPI test their bolts, throw out the one's with imperfections. Companies that DON'T test them, just put them in rifles and assume they're good to go.

How is MPI different from what the rest of us call (ancient and simple) magnafluxing? Link You can do that at home. And BTW, when was the last time you saw any rifle barrel split unless it was badly abused - maybe even had an obstruction in it? We're talking about a relatively low pressure .223/5.56 here...

To the best of my knowledge, magnafluxing is a trademarked name for MPI testing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not wrong, I can do it at home.

High pressure testing, again, is a test. Buying from ____ Company, I know that the barrel will hold up to anything. With a Stag/Olympic/whatever barrel, there could be surface cracks or imperfections that you can't see, and one faulty round is all it takes to push it over the edge. It's just reassurance.

Ditto. When was the last time you saw any barrel split in normal use?

Barrel material should be "11595E" Steel. This is what the Military has decided is the best, most durable steel for the M4 platform. Weather you believe the same thing or not, is up to you. Some chromoly is easier to work with, so gives you more consistency in the rifling. Other steels are just plain more accurate (Stainless). It's all about what YOU think is right for your rifle. If you're only getting 5k rounds per barrel, that's evidence right there. BCM barrel should go 20+ thousand.

Any high powered rifle will begin to show some signs of throat erosion after 5k rounds. It doesn't mean it has to be replaced, but the signs will be there.

Carrier key staking, and especially castle nut staking, are the biggest areas that weapons go down. Talk to any carbine-class instructor and ask them what goes down the most. Your DelTon hasn't been run hard enough to shake any of that loose. You said yourself 3k rounds.

Most AR owners never put 3k rounds through their guns.

When I said "Miles more reliable", I think I should have said "Dependable". The extra steps the factory takes ENSURES that the rifle will not fail due to parts failure.

Again, find me a case of a Del-Ton failing. That's all I ask. When/if you do, I'll find you a case of a high-end AR failing.

But I need to stress, not everyone needs this. My rifles are built to go bang. It will never hold a .5MOA group at 100 yards, but I don't need it to. What I DO need, is for it to be relied upon when I need it. If I get lost for a few years in some Dusty country, jungle, forest, or middle of the damn ocean, my rifle better not be what lets me down.

But it could let you down. A simple extractor could break. A firing pin could break. I believe that if you are "lost for a few years in some Dusty country, jungle, forest, or middle of the damn ocean" you will run out of ammo before you wear out your rifle. Unlike military ops, you won't have a supply chain. By the time you put 3k rounds through it, you will be out of ammo.

 

[gunnoob75]

Not sure if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong, or just attacking me, or what...

I already said, most of the Advantages, most people won't even notice or care about. You like your rifle as is, so shoot and enjoy it.

For those of you here with a little more "demanding" task for their rifles, I'd suggest looking at higher-end rifles. The CHANCE that something could go wrong is not worth a couple hundred bucks. Staking carrier keys and castle nuts is the best upgrade to any rifle, however. It's easy, free, and they are very common failure areas in rifles that get run a little harder. There's no reason not to do it.

 

[elsullo]

Sorry to rattle any chains here, but I had to choose brand name as my first concern. The sad truth is that we someday might have to sell the gun that we said we would never sell. To my great sorrow, I learned that the RESALE VALUE of a superb quality kit gun was very, very low. It was just an assemblage of unprovable parts, with no BRAND NAME. A few knowledgeable fellows even recognized what I had, but they were not buying....................elsullo

 

[Gunner3456]

Not sure if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong, or just attacking me, or what...

I already said, most of the Advantages, most people won't even notice or care about. You like your rifle as is, so shoot and enjoy it.

For those of you here with a little more "demanding" task for their rifles, I'd suggest looking at higher-end rifles. The CHANCE that something could go wrong is not worth a couple hundred bucks. Staking carrier keys and castle nuts is the best upgrade to any rifle, however. It's easy, free, and they are very common failure areas in rifles that get run a little harder. There's no reason not to do it.

Hey, I'm not at all trying to attack you. I'm just discussing the options, and pointing out that for some, a high end gun isn't necessary. I'd say the same about a $600 Springfield GI .45 for some as opposed to a $2,000 high end 1911. I'd say the same about a Glock for some as opposed to a Sig. Everyone doesn't "need" the finest, especially if they can't afford it. If someone has no AR and a Del-Ton is in the budget but a $2,000 model is out of range, I can find no fault with getting the Del-Ton, that's all.

Peace?