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AR-15 80% Lower Build Parties

Discussion in 'Events & Get Togethers' started by PDX1953, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. PDX1953

    PDX1953 Active Member

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    I've read on other forums about build parties where folks get together and help each other complete the machining on an unfinished lower. Is anyone aware of this type of get together in the greater Portland area? I already own a couple of ARs but would like to complete a lower and make some new friends in the gun community.

    Thanks
     
    ROC likes this.
  2. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Changes in the way the law reads that happened in January make it illegal to use others machinery if they are any kind of a business. I had thought about having a build party at my shop but I would now be committing a crime as I read the rules. I think two friends can still get together and share a router to knock a couple out, but coming over and using my mill would constitute a federal crime simply because I own a metalworking business.

    I have built a dozen or so 80% lowers using billet and forged blanks and several different jigs. The reality is they can be pretty sloppy and ugly and still function perfect but if you want it to look like a professionally machined part it's tough to do without machine tools.


    No one will ever see what it looks like but you though ;-)
     
  3. PDX1953

    PDX1953 Active Member

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    I've hemmed & hawed over building my own but unless I was going to build a pile of them it's not worth the cost of the jigs & machinery. I had a mill & lathe in my garage when I lived in CT and they were for personal use but I don't think 80% lowers even existed then. I don't want a piece of crap when I'm done either so unless someone has their own personal equipment & would be willing to host a party then I'll continue to buy stripped lowers. Just finished an AR-15 pistol for my son & start on one for me next week. After that it'll be a very short AR-15 SBR. Maybe a 7" barrel or less. The equivalent of a snub-nose AR. :)
     
  4. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    If I can make one with a jig and a hand held router and have it run several hundred flawless rounds then I'd say that is pretty good chance that they are really hard to screw up. The building part was the fun part for me.

    Plus if registration is coming, hard to register something with no numbers on it.
     
  5. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    I'm the same way. I want it to look better than a factory lower. I spent big money in comparison to what you can buy even a real nice lower for. All mine have extensive custom laser engraving and where anodized. Starting with a billet lower its not hard to end up $200+ in a lower not including jigs. 90% of anyone who looked at one of my lowers would never think it started as a 80% paperweight. They have graphics, fire control markings and serial numbers image.jpg
     
    GeneticPyro likes this.
  6. PDX1953

    PDX1953 Active Member

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    Those are really nice receivers and they look a lot better than many big name brands. Who did the engraving & was it expensive?
     
  7. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    KustomT Did the engraving. I think his screen name here is something like laserman. These where less than $50 each to do a graphic, serial number and fire control markings
     
  8. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    So if I rent out my shop and leave,It's Illegal if some one use's my mill to make a personal firearm?
    BS.
     
  9. Capn Jack

    Capn Jack Wet-Stern Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    3 years of Machinist Apprentice courses in high school 100 years ago. I have a lathe, drill press, indexing vice and all of the hand tools, so I thought it might be fun, but then, I don't need one and I'm third, or forth down the line on any of my lowers, so serial #'s are irrelevant. It keeps nagging me though...:p
     
  10. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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  11. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    ANYONE can make their own firearm for personal use.
    The law does not state that you can't use some one else's equipment to do it.
    (FFL or not)

    " may engage in the business"
    Is the key phrase the rest is filler...............................

    If you build your own gun without the intention of selling it when complete you are good to go.

    If you buy and sell guns for profit other than to enhance your personal collection , Manufacture for profit , Or intend on making a livelihood by either you are......................................................................


    "Engaged in the business"
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  12. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    You didn't read far enough. In this section it does not say anything about making them for sale, Simply making them




    Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.

    Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment.

    Held further, this ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed on persons under the GCA, and does not interpret the requirements of the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5801 et. seq.


    The wording says that any shop that is in the business of machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process and allows there machinery to be used by others to make a firearm from a 80% lower must be licensed as a firearm manufacturer

    http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/01/0...g-of-the-new-year-is-it-the-end-of-80-lowers/
     
    Koda likes this.
  13. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    You are 100% wrong.

    If you make them to sell you need a FFL.
    If you make it for yourself you do not.


    "Business" means you are doing it for profit..( making guns for money)
    That's why they say it over and over again in the statute.
     
  14. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Exactly which is why I'm in business, to make money. why I own those machines. And the way I read it is because I am in business and the intent of those machine is to make money that I cannot let somebody else use those machines to manufacture a firearm from an 80% receiver even if I am not charging them to use them.

    There's no question I can use the machines to make my own, but because I'm a business I can't let you use my machines to make yours.

    It states in there unlicensed machine shop which is exactly what I am

    If I was just a guy with a mill in his garage it would be a different story
     
  15. PDX1953

    PDX1953 Active Member

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    I agree with IronMoster on this in principle and to err on the side of caution. He doesn't know me from Adam & I could be some A-hole ATF agent trying to entrap an unsuspecting firearms enthusiast. If I decide to finish out a paperweight I'll do with someone who won't get their butt in a wringer.

    I interpret the rules the same way IronMonster does but I'd rather be wrong about them than sorry later.
     
  16. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Id like to be wrong, but I think the wording is just vague enough that you could be made an example out of. The ruling was to stop the shops in Cali who you bought an 80% lower from, walked out back and dropped it in a CNC mill and pushed "start". You leave with a finished lower that you "really" did not make yourself. It was a loophole in the eyes of the ATF and the way to stop it was to say if you are a biz you can't let anyone else use your equipment to finish their lower.


    My feeling is I want no part of anything questionable when it comes to the ATF. They are really the only branch of law enforcement that can charge you based on a vague interpretation of law and likely get a conviction (simply because if they interpret the law AND say you broke it it's hard to argue. ) There are a number of ATF cases that I am aware of that logic was suspended to get a conviction. One where a guy's rifle with a form 1 integral suppressor that came apart for cleaning was charged for a unregistered SBR because the barrel was only 15 3/4" long without the threaded end cap which was not pinned. (1/4" is good for a 2 year federal prison stay and lifetime loss of your firearms rights, my understanding was the guy simply measured different than the Feds did and he thought he was golden) Another who was charged with possession of a machine gun for a AR that malfunctioned.

    If you want proof that they can suspend logic for a conviction just remember this is a agency that determined that a shoe string was in fact a machine gun.
     
  17. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Hi Who!
    If you have a machine shop business and earn money or tv dinners
    And you provide your shop, tools, etc for money or tv dinners (rent)
    To someone that uses your stuff to hollow out a fire control pocket in a paperweight
    Even though you are not present at the time of hollowing out,
    The Gov says that by GOV definition,
    you are a firearms manufacturer
    and are violating the GCA of 1968
    Because
    You aren't keeping records as required by law
    You aren't marking the finished paperweight/receiver as required by law
    When the finished paperweight leaves your shop, you become a firearms distributor by law
    You haven't paid $$$ to the GOV for a firearms manufacturer license

    IronMonster is 100% correct and is covering his assets by steering clear of the GOV
     
  18. PDX1953

    PDX1953 Active Member

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    A guy in SoCal had his customers press a button on the CNC mill & then claimed the customer actually 'built' the lower. The ATF busted him & even if he was to somehow wiggle out of this he'll be broke from the legal fees. It's not worth the risk - period.

    I just called my local (Portland) ATF office to ask about building a Form 1 SBR. I asked if I needed to engrave my Trust name & related info on it if I used a serialized stripped lower. He said "No" & when I mentioned it was required for a Form 1 suppressor he laughed & asked where I got the information. I said I'd read it on the internet & he got a chuckle out of that until I told him it was on the ATF website. Suddenly his tune changed & he referred me to the NFA Branch in Virginia. So much for ATF investigators knowing their own requirements.
     
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  19. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to not respond anymore,I have 15 years in the buiss,
    If you rent out your shop to some one,You ARE NOT Liable for what they make.
    Whether its a car part or a DD it's not your problem.

    If you put it in the vice and push the button YOU made it by BATFE reg's.

    If you cower now, where will you stand when the sheet hits the fan my friends?????????????????

    Are you going to be a Tory rat bastard or a free man when the day comes?
    Cower in the shadow's or live in the light.


    BTW: The ATF guy was right you can use existing info on a lower on your form 1 or 2.


    I have a FFL/SOT and have been audited more than once,Anyone else talking on the subject actually have a MFG FFL/SOT??
     
  20. coctailer

    coctailer Portland, OR/Hastings, MI/Vancouver,WA I run with scissors.

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    I do.

    In 3 different states.
    Can I come over and mill out some lowerz?:p
     
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