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Appleseed Quote- seriously?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Ironbar, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. Ironbar

    Ironbar Tigard, OR Well-Known Member

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    This quote appears on the Appleseed "Redcoat" target:

    "The famed American Rifleman from the Revolutionary War could make a head shot at 250 yards with a muzzle loading rifle and basic iron sights."

    Really? I'm sorry but I don't believe this, at least not all of it. I'm sure it probably happened on occasion, but I do not believe for one second that a rifleman, even a fully trained one, could consistently make 250 yard head shots using late 18th century muzzle loading rifles.
     
  2. pokerace

    pokerace Newberg Well-Known Member

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    It does not say consistently!!
     
  3. DinhRose

    DinhRose Austin, Texas (Ex-Pat of SE PDX) Active Member

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    Oh sweet irony. You beat him on a technicality
     
  4. 2506

    2506 Seattle Well-Known Member

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    Remember too, there was no command to "aim" in the British service at that time. It was "present" (basically raise the musket and point it over yonder) and "give fire" or just "fire". If you look closely at photos of what are now called first and second pattern Brown Besses, the later model had straighter locks and butt configuration, even more so on the still later "India Pattern" or third pattern) said by some to prevent the tedium of "aiming" by the troops. Strategy was based on volume of firing by ranks...not marksmanship.
     
  5. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    The head shot on the red coat target is taken from Daniel Morgan's recuriting technique of putting a target out at a long distance and men who could hit the target were in his company called Morgan's Riflemen.

    From wiki on Daniel Morgan
    American Revolution

    After the American Revolutionary War began at the Battles of Lexington and Concord in 1775, the Continental Congress created the Continental Army. They called for the formation of 10 rifle companies from the middle colonies to support the Siege of Boston, and late in June 1775 Virginia agreed to send two. The Virginia House of Burgesses chose Daniel Morgan to form one of these companies and serve as its commander with the rank of captain. Morgan had served as an officer in the Virginia Colonial Militia since the French and Indian War. He recruited 96 men in 10 days and assembled them at Winchester on July 14. He then marched them 600 miles (970 km) to Boston, Massachusetts in only 21 days, arriving on Aug. 6, 1775.[4] He led this outstanding group of marksmen nicknamed "Morgan's Riflemen." What set Morgans Riflemen apart from other companies was the technology they had with their rifles. They had rifled barrels with thin walls and curved grooves inside the barrels which made them light and much more accurate than the British muskets. Morgan used this advantage to initiate guerrilla tactics by which he first killed the Indian guides the British used to find their way through the rugged terrain and also to kill the British officers that led the troops. While this tactic was viewed as dishonorable by the British elites, it was in fact an extremely effective method that created chaos and discord for the British Army.

    Some other historical references to the marksmen of the time.

    VIRGINIA GAZETTE 2
    August THE 3, 1775
    WILLIAMSBURG

    That a number of rifle-men had marched from Pennsylvania to the continental camp near Boston. That on the 11th of last month captain Morgan's company of rifle-men passed through Frederick town , in Maryland, on their way to the American army, and were in a day after followed by the companies under the captains Cresap, Stinson, and Price, all chosen rifle-men, eager to hazard their lives in their country's cause, and followed the righteous undertaking of their beloved Washington!

    And a description of a demonstration by Captain Michael Cresap's group mentioned above:
    The Pennsylvania Gazette
    August 16, 1775
    Title: PHILADELPHIA, August 16.

    Extract of a Latter from Frederick Town, [Maryland] August 1.

    "Notwithstanding the Urgency of my Business, I have been detained three Days in this Place by an Occurrence truly agreeable. - I have had the Happiness of seeing Captain Michael Cresap, marching at the Head of a formidable Company, of upwards of 130 Men from the Mountains and back Woods, painted like Indians, armed with Tomahawks and Rifles , dressed in hunting Shirts and Mockasons, and tho' some of them had travelled near 800 Miles from the Banks of the Ohio, they seemed to walk light and easy, and not with less Spirit than in the first Hour of their March. - Health and Vigour, after what they had undergone, declared them to be intimate with Hardship and familiar with Danger - Joy and Satisfaction were visible in the Crowd that met them - Had Lord North been present, and assured that the brave Leader could raise Thousands of such like to defend his Country, what think you, would not the Hatchet and the Block have intruded upon his Mind? I had an Opportunity of attending the Captain during his Stay in Town, and watched the Behaviour of his Men, and the Manner in which he treated them; for it seems that all those who go out to War under him, do not only pay the most willing Obedience to him as their Commander, but in every Instance of Distress look up to him as a Friend or a Father. - A great Part of his Time was spent in listening to and relieving their Wants, without any apparent Sense of Fatigue or Trouble; when Complaints were before him he determined with Kindness and Spirit, and on every Occasion condescended to please without losing his Dignity. -
    "Yesterday the Company were supplied with a small Quantity of Powder from the Magazine, which wanted airing, and was not in good Order for Rifles; in the Evening, however, they were drawn out, to shew the Gentlemen of the Town their Dexterity in shooting; a Clapboard with a Mark the Size of a Dollar, was put up; they began to fire off hand, and the Bystanders were surprized, few Shot being made that were not close to or in the Paper; when they shot for a Time in this Way, some lay on their Backs, some on their Breast or Side, others ran 20 or 30 Steps and firing, appeared to be equally certain of their Mark - With this Performance the Company were more than satisfied, when a young Man took up the Board in his Hand, not by the End but the Side, and holding it up, his Brother walked to the Distance and very coolly shot into the white; laying down his Rifle, he took the Board, and holding it as it was held before, the second Brother shot as the former had done. - By this exercise I was more astonished then pleased. But will you believe me when I tell you that one of the Men took the Board and placing it between his Legs, stood with his Back to the Tree, while another drove the Center. What would a regular Army, of considerable Strength in the Forest of America do with 1000 of these Men, who want nothing to preserve their Health and Courage, but Water from the Spring, with a little parched Corn, and what they can easily procure in Hunting; and who, wrapped in their Blankets in the Damp of Night, would choose the Shade of a Tree for their Covering, and the Earth for their Bed?"
     
    ogre and (deleted member) like this.
  6. ocarolan

    ocarolan Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The Pennsylvannia Long Rifle had an effective range of about 300 yards in experienced hands.

    The Pennsylvania Center for the Book - Pennsylvania Rifles

    I think the Appleseed statement might reference a quote from British Colonel George Hanger (ML Brown):

    "I have many times asked the American backwoodsman what was the mosttheir best marksmen could do; they have constantly told me that an expert marksman, provided he can draw good & true sight, can hit the head of a man at 200 yards."

    Also it may allude to the Siege of Boonesborough, in which an officer was hit at 250 yards after poking his head out.

    To be clear, remember the majority of patriot fighters in the Revolutionary War weren't riflemen - they carried muskets. Riflemen were an elite faction, recruited from backwoodsman and hunters. Only the Americans and Hessians had Rifleman units.
     
  7. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    I love Last of the Mohicans (1992):thumbup:
     
  8. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    WOW you need to go to a Blackpowder Rendevous and watch the girls shoot. My wife and I shot in competition for a dozen years. The wife shot along side the men PREGNANT and could hit a Basketball sized target at 200 yards standing. A commom target at 200 yards was a old OXY cylinder hanging from a tree. She (as did I also cut playing cards on their edge as well as split balls on a double bladed axe head and break two clay pidgeons placed on either side of the head.

    I have seen guys bench shooting Muzzle loaders do 1/2 MOA groups at 200+ yards.

    Just because you haven't seen it or believe it doesn't mean it isn't commonly done.
     
  9. Ironbar

    Ironbar Tigard, OR Well-Known Member

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    Well then, I stand corrected!