Any Ideas on this black powder pistol?

[Medic!]

I have no Idea what I'm looking at. So maybe Andy or someone else can tell me what this is?

The fit of metal to wood was nice. And the barrel had a almost Damascus grain to it.

You never know. Maybe a treasure. [Priced at $850 so probably worth $50 ]
I'm thinking a pig in a poke.

Anyways it will give us something to talk about.

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[Sgt Nambu]

Big azzed bore on it!!!

 

[Medic!]

Well the gun was smallish. So bore is somewhat exaggerated.
Still it must be around a 60 caliber?

Anyways. I thought it would make a great club when your empty.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Back action lock ... Later percussion period. ( 1840s onward )
Fluted handle ... Looks like those I've seen on French , Belgium or Spanish pistols.
Short ram rod ... Again like those I've seen on French , Belgium or Spainish pistols.
Finger spur guard... Very popular with pistols ... circa 1820's onward
I still would date your pistol to the 1850's...
You mention "a almost Damascus grain " to the barrel ... It may well be a Damascus barrel or perhaps a Damascus finish ... both very popular.
The "Snail Drum" is very nicely done ... Again a later feature ( 1840's onward )
Not sure what to make of the markings on the grip cap screw?....
Does it have a Hooked Breech?
Any markers marks / proof marks on the barrel or lock ?


All in all a very fine pistol.
I would say its a European pistol of the 1840's - 1860's period.
It looks to be well built and sound.
Did you buy it?
Andy

 

[Medic!]

Thanks Andy.

I could probably identify a breached hooker.
But what is a hooked breach?

No I did not buy it. So it's all yours if interested.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

You are very welcome Medic!
On a hooked breeched firearm ... you pull the wedge pin out from the barrel and can remove the barrel from the gun and the breech.
The barrel "Hooks" into the breech.

On a fixed breech gun the barrel is screwed into the breech.

As a general rule a fixed breech gun is a bit better quality and of a later period ... as always there are exceptions to this...
Andy

 

[Medic!]

I did not see any markings or proof marks. And did not want to remove the wedge pin as it was varnished in place. So not sure what's on the bottom of the barrel, or how it's secured?

I can always go back and have a look I guess?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

You did great on the pictures...
Can you take a picture of the breech area / lock and "Snail drum" area?
Close ups and from the top looking down... this may help in deciding if it has a hooked or fixed breech.

As nice as a pistol this appears to be ... I can't buy a gun now...but thanks for the heads up.
Andy

 

[Medic!]

Well do you think it's worth the $850 asking price?

If so then all it would take is 42.5 people here pledging $20 bucks to the official,
''Andy want's it. But can't buy a gun right now'' fund. And it's yours.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Is it rifled or smooth bore?
The engraving also appears to be nicely done.
It should be secured by the wedge pin and tang screw...
Andy

 

[Medic!]

It is a smooth bore. I can tell you that.

Sounds Like I need more pictures and a better inspection to really be helpful. [Just like someone wanting me to give info on there old 1911A1]
Sorry to put you on the spot with limited info.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Well do you think it's worth the $850 asking price?

If so then all it would take is 42.5 people here pledging $20 bucks to the official,
''Andy want's it. But can't buy a gun right now'' fund. And it's yours.

That is a excellent fund! ... Now if only it were to happen...
As to if it is worth $850....
Maybe.
As I've said it appears to be well built and a quality pistol.
If I had the funds , I might feel better about a $600-$750 price.
That said $850 may be a fair price depending on if there is a name hidden there or something that I missed...
Andy

 

[Andy54Hawken]

It is a smooth bore. I can tell you that.

Sounds Like I need more pictures and a better inspection to really be helpful. [Just like someone wanting me to give info on there old 1911A1]
Sorry to put you on the spot with limited info.

No need to apologize ... All is good!
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

Me thinks it a Spanish pistol, the overall look and size says Spaniard to me! The French pistols I have seen have more "flair" around the bottom of the grip and the lock. Another possibility might be Portuguese from about the same era! Neet pistol Medic! Really like the look of it and am interested in learning more about it!

 

[Bon Sauvage]

A breech plug was threaded into the barrel of the firearm thus enclosing one end. Very often the breech plug had a tang. This tang was often fastened to the stock by a screw that threaded into the trigger plate. To remove the barrel one had to remove the wedges or pins (I have seen both) and remove the tang screw.

A hooked breech means that the breech plug of the pistol has a hook on it that allowed it to hook into the tang of the pistol which was a separate piece. To remove the barrel you would just remove the pins or wedges (again I have seen both) and lift out the barrel and breech plug together leaving the tang, still threaded to the trigger plate, behind.

 

[Stomper]

Does it come with a fancy white doily, too?

 

[Dungannon]

Does the seller have evidence of its history?

Here's a couple listing to consider...
.44 Spanish percussion pistol with 9,1/2 ins fluted octagonal half stocked barrel, steel furnitur

modern reproduction
Cased pair of Spanish Percussion Pistols

 

[BillGabby1]

If it were my money being spent on a possible fake , I would have a local expert give it a really good once or twice over.
Chances are at $850 it may be there a while so you may have plenty of time to look up your expert.
Of course maybe you have a tree with lots of $850 gold plums hanging from it. But I sure would like a lot better estimation of its worth than what you can get from a forum of questionable gents who likely don't know anymore than you do and conceivably even less. Andy being the exception to that rule , but even he is handicapped by the inability to put hands and eyes to the item.
Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware!
There are lots of fake "antiques" out there.
My antenna vibrated when you said the wedges had been varnished over.
I'm no expert, so take what I say as you see fit, just don't make me say "I told you so!".
Gabby

 

[Andy54Hawken]

This pistol as a well made "fake" did cross my mind.
It could be a new gun that has been aged or a new gun made with antique parts.
It can be difficult to tell real from fake , old from well aged new ,without holding or seeing the gun in person.

Stocks are a great way to tell old from new.
It is almost impossible to fake 150 odd year old wood shrinkage or dryness.
Metal standing high and "proud" , drying cracks etc ...
Old stocks just have an old feel ... I know that doesn't really help here , without seeing or holding the pistol.
Having the wedges varnished over may be a sign that is is new and has been "antiqued"...
Or it could be a re-finish or even a poorly thought out older "protective measure".

One should not judge or date a gun by just one feature of it ... But the lock on this pistol being a back action lock , has me leaning to it being a real antique.
Not many folks use a back action lock for a fake.
The trigger is also very slim and that is another antique feature.
The discoloration of the wood near the wood screw at the back of the lock ... is a good sign of being antique as well.
Lots of wear shows up there in antique guns.

One quick and dirty way to tell if its new or antique is to try a metric screw in place of one of the guns original screws...
Do not try a modern nipple ... as many old guns have had their original nipples replaced in the past.
Also many folks antique the outside of the gun , but neglect to remove new marks from the inside of the lock ... always good to check there if you can.

All in all ... the gun looks good to me ... but I am not an expert , nor have I handled this pistol.
as BillGabby said "the inability to put hands and eyes on the item" is key here.
Wish I was closer and could see and handle this pistol...
Andy