Any B.C. members yet?

[Frog]

Thanks for the up-dates emanon, and sorry to be so 'long-winded'.

Admittedly some of my info, titles and terms may be 'dated', but the information you relay is much the same.

My point is that firearms, especiately handguns is Canada are, and have always been in my life-time (50 years), very restricted; and while not banned altogether, the laws have made possesion and ownership more of a hassle than it is worth, to many.

My experience of Canada also taught me that laws there are 'open' to a lot of interpertation. I believe it comes from British Common Law. The laws are not always enforced in the same way in different parts of the country. These differences of enforcement are relevent to Canadian law in general, not just firearms. And yes there is a lot of differences in the 'enforcement' between the East and West, but this is also true within the Provinces!

I too would like to hear from any Canadian shooters with 'first-hand' experince in this area.

With it all 'said and done', even as we object to many of the gun laws here in the U.S., it's a whole lot better for gun owners and enthusiasts here, than in Canada.

Frog.

 

[DE44]

Frog. To get a non-restricted PAL is about $150 and takes a 2 day course. Once passed you send your application to Ottawa, I think it's $65 processing fee, wait a few months maybe only a couple if your lucky and voila you are licensed. To purchase non-restricted you go to the gun shop or private sale, call Canadian Firearms centre, most of the times transfer is pretty much immediate.

Restricted is the same but you may have to wait a day to weeks depending on the province. The CFO's (Chief Firearms Officers) in each province are supposed to follow the Canadian Firearms Act but depending on the province they exercise their own interpretation. Generally Ontario and Quebec are the worst. A temporary ATT (Authorization To transport) is issued and you can then take your handgun home. No fees for either transfer.

I am just in the process of starting to understand you firearms laws and from what I gather you would not be allowed to carry on of these without a special license while we can. Something like this will be my next gun for wilderness carry. Just need to figure out how to make a holster for it.

 

[emanon]

We are definitely very fortunate down here Frog! On the other hand, if I had to pick another country besides the US to live in then the gun laws in (Western) Canada seem pretty decent, as do most aspects of life there. I'd love to hear from folks who know of other countries with comparable or better gun laws.

 

[Frog]

Thanks DD44,

Sounds like Canada may have moved toward the 20th century, somewhat, but I'd like some clarification.

First, when you refer to non-restricted firearms, are you refering to 'hunting' type rifles?

Second, when you refer to restricted firearms, is this handguns?

Third, we don't require a license to carry a firearm (rifle or handgun), if it is not carried 'concelled'. Are you saying your P.A.L. gives you authorization to carry 'concelled'?

Finialy, am I correct that you must have a ATT everytime the firearm is moved?

Inquiring mines need to know.

Thanks,
Frog.

 

[emanon]

Frog,
I'm not sure if your questions were just for DE44 so I hope you don't mind if I tackle them.

1. "NON-RESTRICTED FIREARMS - Non-restricted firearms are:
o shotguns and rifles which are not restricted or prohibited
o the M1 Garand and Lee Enfield rifles, which otherwise would be prohibited due to their large capacity clip or magazine.
o some military-appearance firearms (including some similar to the AR-15) which the bureaucrats haven't found out about yet

- Note that there is no such thing as a "non-restricted handgun." ALL handguns are either restricted or prohibited."

* There are many kinds of non-restricted "tactical/military/police" style rifles and shotguns available.

2. " RESTRICTED FIREARMS - Restricted firearms are:
o handguns which are not prohibited, including the competition handguns listed here
o semi-automatic centerfire firearms with a barrel length less than 470mm (18.5 inches) which are not prohibited
o firearms, which can be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660mm (26 inches) by folding/telescoping/etc., which are not prohibited
o any of a list of firearms specifically listed as restricted. The most notable entries are the AR-15 and variants, which stand out as being military-appearance firearms which are not prohibited, and a list of competition handguns which are exempted from being prohibited in spite of their characteristics."

3. The PAL is NOT an authorization to carry concealed. There are "Authorizations to Carry" handguns available but generally these are for security guards or folks in wilderness jobs who need to carry a pistol for defense against animals. There are ATCs for concealed carry but unless the law changes, your average Canadian will never of any meet anyone who has one much less get their own.

4. You do not ever have to have an ATT for non-restricted guns. For restricted guns, an ATT is always required. However you can generally get a long-term ATT so that you dont have to get a new one every time you want to move the gun. More info is to be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_To_Transport

Here's an example of the process that I grabbed from the Canadian Gun Nutz forums. In this case the information is for someone from Alberta where the process tends to be fairly easy comparatively as is the case with most western provinces.
"1. Take restricted firearms course.
2. Join a club (this is not a requirement in Alberta, and is an optional step)
3. Buy a Handgun or Black Rifle, or one of each, and 20,000 rounds of ammo, you will be issued an ATT to take it home (temporary).
4. Call the CFC at 1-800-731-4000 and tell them you would like a long term ATT with the following conditions attached:
a: You want to be able to transport firearms to all approved ranges all over Western Canada, including the Territories. (BC,AB,SK,MB,YK,NWT,NVT)
b: You want it for 5 years, or until the expiry date of your PAL
c: You want to be able to transport all legally posessed firearms, which means you can borrow them from friends and family provided you have the registration certificate
d: You want it good 24/7 and good for all Border Crossing into the USA
5. Go redneck go!!!!!!!!! You are now armed with the most important piece of paper concerning your precious few firearms freedoms!!
6. Attempt to get an Authorization To Carry permit for when you are in the wilderness. Let us know how you make out!!"

 

[DE44]

Frog
Yes Non-restricted's are basically hunting rifles that are an overall length of 26". Now having said that you can tell that shotty isn't 26" or longer and it is considered non-restricted. Although I have been a firearms owner for some time now I do not fully understand why some are non-restricted and some restricted. I can tell you it goes back to around 1994 when bill C-68 was introduced and a panel of people got together and decided what was restricted and what wasn't. I have heard it stated that basically, if it looked evil it became restricted and if it didn't it was non-restricted. This over simplifies our laws and I am sure when some more informed Canadians join they will better answer this question.

Restricted would be handguns, black military guns, etc. However like the non-restricted guns variants of some restricteds, except handguns, are not restricted. The following info is copied from a canadian guns supplier.

"The CZ 858-2 Tactical is a new production semi automatic only rifle. Although the CZ 858-2 Tactical looks like an AK derivative she is actually a different design. With the standard 390 mm barrel these would be restricted, as these are new production we are having them specially produced by CZ, Uhersky Brod, Czech Republic, with a 482 mm (approx 19 inch) barrel so that they are NON-RESTRICTED." An AK-47 is actually prohibited and the CZ-858-2 although it looks like it, can be carried for hunting etc. no problem.

Again I am not an expert on this subject and I probably shouldn't even be the one commenting on this but there doesn't seem to be a lot of Canadian members yet so I'm trying my best. I find our firearms laws difficult to follow.

A P.A.L doesn't give you conceal carry in Canada. No one gets to CC in canada. Although I have heard if your a politician or a judge you could probably get CC. it is not illegal to do so if you have a license it is just the CFO's will not issue the licenses from what I understand.

Finally, you have to have your PAL, registration and you long term ATT to transport a restricted firearm. To transport a non-restricted you must have your PAL or POL (possession only license, don't ask )and the registration for the gun.

For a complete list of firearms classification follow the link.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/r&p_e.asp

Clear as mud ey?

 

[Frog]

Hey, thanks to both you guys - emanon and DE44,

You've both enlightened me to realize that Canada's gun laws aren't as restrictive as I thought!

So lets 'review' based on what you have both said.

1. Permit (license) to own any firearm necessary. U.S. - No * Canada - Yes

2. Can transport a firearm any time you want,
openly, without a permit or license. U.S. - yes * Canada - No

3. Can own, transport and fire a semi-auto
firearm. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No

4. Can own a fully auto firearm. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No

5. Can obtain a Concelled firearm permit. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No

6. Can go 'out-side' to a safe place and shoot
a brick, just for fun. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No

7. Must restrict 'shooting for fun' to a firing
range. U.S. - No * Canada - Yes

I know there must be lots more to compare, but just these points along suggest that the firearm laws in Canada are far more restricted than in the U.S.

However, as you have pointed out, the hoops that they make you jump in Canada are not as high as they used to be, and instead of making the effort 'impossible', they now only make it difficult, annoying and expensive.

Frog.

 

[emanon]

Frog,

One thing to keep in mind is that gun laws in Canada are far more standardized than in the US. Here the laws vary widely depending on what state, county and even city you are in. Guns that are perfectly legal and require no permit or anything here in Oregon are felonies the moment you cross into California for example. Here's a reply to what you posted:

1. Permit (license) to own any firearm necessary. U.S. - No * Canada - Yes
True for Canada but also true for the millions of people in the US who live in places that require a permit or license to own firearms.

2. Can transport a firearm any time you want, openly, without a permit or license. U.S. - yes * Canada - No US: a gun that is legal in one area may be banned in another and many areas do not allow the open transport of firearms. NFA guns face further restrictions.
In Canada, if you have a PAL you can generally transport your non-restricted gun wherever and whenever you like.

3. Can own, transport and fire a semi-auto firearm. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No I'm not sure what you gives you the impression otherwise but you can definitely own, transport and fire semi-auto's in Canada. With a non-restricted firearm you can do so in pretty much all the same places that you could here in the US.

4. Can own a fully auto firearm. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No
US: Not true for all areas of the US and only true with far more restrictions than non FA guns. Canada: There are a few regular folks left who still legally own FA guns due to being grandfathered in but as the law stands now, they will be the last folks able to do.

5. Can obtain a Concelled firearm permit. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No
US: Not true for millions of Americans, and only true for most of the rest of us after we jump through a bunch of legal hoops. Canada: The laws are on the books for people to get concealed carry permits but the government virtually never issues them.

6. Can go 'out-side' to a safe place and shoot a brick, just for fun. U.S. - Yes * Canada - No
US: Not true for many places in the US, particularly out east. Canada: There are many "safe outside" places where you can still shoot a non-restricted firearm besides gun ranges, such as private land or some public lands.

7. Must restrict 'shooting for fun' to a firing range. U.S. - No * Canada - Yes Not entirely true for either country, see my answer to 6.

Generally the gun laws in Canada are far more restrictive for most things then gun laws are far most places in the US. That said, it really depends on where in the US you are talking about and what you are wanting to do or own in either country.

 

[DE44]

Frog Emanaon is pretty much bang on with his response. Only thing I would add is that those Canadians that do own FA will be the last and they are no longer allowed to shoot them anymore, even at approved ranges. Emanon thanks for helping to clear up some of the confusion. I would love to have less restriction especially when it comes to CC, FA, suppression etc. Heck I'd like to be as free as you Oregonians.

 

[Frog]

All your points are well taken emanon and you are right, the laws here do vary from State to State.
But they also do in Canada, as different areas make different interpertations and enforcements.

You got me on the semi-auto hand guns. I didn't know the public could own them in Canada. I thought they were only for law enforcement types.

You also got me on the 'out-side' safe to shoot area. I thought you could only shoot 'outside' in Canada, if it was duck or some other wild life game season, using only a long rifle or shotgun. And never on Sunday.

You are right, there are millions of Felons in American that can not legally own firearms, or obtain a concelled weapons permit. However I believe the
2nd ammendment gives all U.S. citizens the right to bear arms, regardless of State restrictions or jumping hoops. We've just seen what happened in D.C. and we will see other States who have over-stepped their authority legally forced to honor the constitution.

And yes, I'm speaking of the transport of 'legal' firearms without a permit, like a P.A.L..

And you may have me again emanon, but I don't think there is anybody old enough in Canada to legally own a fully automatic firearm.

In the end, the laws are, what the laws are. What might be 'restrictive' to one, may only be a inconvience, or even 'nothing' to someone else. I, for example, am not into full auto firearms. I wouldn't be, even if I could afford to be. So the laws that restrict, prohibit or control the use of full auto firearms, are 'nothing' to me. And, I'm not into, what are generally referred to as Assault Firearms. I don't have anything against either of them, it's just that the laws regarding them, don't effect me.

Then again, I believe in back-round checks, in an attempt to keep firearms out of the hands of Felons. I don't think the law, as they are written, do much good, so on the one hand, it effects me because I know there are Felons out there with guns. On the other hand, the backround check doesnt effect me purchasing a firearm, because I'm not a Felon!

That being said, I don't believe that law abiding, suffiently trained, sane, legal and responsible persons, once found to be so, should be restricted or prohibited in any way, wheather they live in the U.S. or Canada! Even licensing, with training endorments to demonstrate competence, would be OK, but not prohibited or restricted ownership!

There is a small town, I read about a few months back. I think it was in Arizona. Anyway, they passed a law mandating that the head of every household must own and keep in his or her home a firearm. Now that's a law I can live with!

Frog.

 

[Frog]

Yo DE44,

I 'see' you are from Southern B.C.

I used to ski a lot at Tod, Silver Star and Big White. Even got over to Rossland once or twice. And I had relatives in Creston a long time ago.

It sure is pretty country in that area.

Frog.

 

[emanon]

A point of clarification: While I personally don't agree with bans against felons or the other classes of people who are banned from legally owning guns, I was actually referring to the millions of people who live in US states and cities that require permits/licenses just to own a gun - just like in Canada. I believe that all people everywhere have the right to own and use firearms for the personal defense if they so choose. Governments and their laws cannot and do not dictate what is right, only recognize or attempt to deny our freedom!

You seem to be under the impression that gun laws are improving in Canada. My impression is the opposite: most restrictions on gun ownership there came about in the late 1970s, with further restrictions being added in the 1990's. So while legal civilian owners of "prohibited" guns in Canada are literally a dying breed there are still a good number of them left for now.
It is also worth noting that hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of Canadians are defying these restrictions, some quite openly: <broken link removed>

 

[Frog]

emanon wrote:
"You seem to be under the impression that gun laws are improving in Canada".

Based on what you and DE44 have told me, it appears to me that they have improved, when compared to the way they were 20 years ago.

Based on your comments about Felons, I think I see the problem here. You look at the laws from a different side than I do. What you preceive as 'bad', I may very well see as 'good', and visi-versi.

Frog.