(another) SBR thread

[bbbass]

Off topic... I've been hearing a lot about trusts on this Forum... what is up with trusts and firearms?

 

[wired]

Without writing a book on the subject you can form a trust , which is a legal entity much like if a corporation had sex with a will and popped out another legal entity that could own things like silencers and sbr's. Then you make yourself trustee of the trust so that you have full use rights to everything the trust owns. It was a great way to get around the CLEO signature bit for years. Trusts dont have fingerprints or pictures etc. Just fill out the forms, send it in and you got approved. There has been a recent reinterpretation of the rules recently and it will become a little more difficult. It was a great scam while it lasted.

 

[bbbass]

Got it. Thx!!

 

[PDXSparky]

Slight amendment to this...
A Caliber must be engraved as well. If you have a lower with "Multi" the firearm needs to have a caliber somewhere on it. Most barrels are engraved with the caliber so you may not need to even worry about it.

True. Occasionally people SBR something other than an AR lower. My IMI Uzi has 3 calibers engraved, so I'd have to pick one to put on the Form 1.

 

[Ryo]

I recall hearing from previous ATF rulings that you only had to engrave an SBR if you planned on selling it, anyone know if this is true? If I wanted to SBR my Action Arms UZI I wouldn't want to ruin the value by engraving my name on it

You're confusing this with 80% lower builds. You must engrave with the name placed on the ATF Form.

 

[PDXSparky]

where and how does one get the form(s) for this? Is this form the same as for suppressors? Can more then one "transaction" be done on this form? Forgive me, This is new territory for me. Also, I am told that for one suppressor the cost is $200:00 and for multi suppressors done with in one year it is $500:00 no matter how many are done, Is this correct? How much does the SBR part of this process cost?

Form 1 can be found at https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-forms You want ATF 5320.1 if you want to "make" a SBR, SBS, or suppressor.

In Portland it's Bye Engraving. They do a lot of them and you can watch while they do the work.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Bye doesn't have a FFL, so you actually need to stay there while they engrave a firearm.

Can I use an ampersand in a trust name:

K&H Arms Trust
City, Washington

Or would I have to spell out and? ...details...

You have to engrave exactly as it is titled on the trust. The only thing that can be abbreviated is the state name using what the USPS uses.

That I don't need, I struggle to keep my self in ammo as it is. Thats all I need, 30 rounds gone in 5 seconds. I would need deep pockets to afford a full-auto habit.

Well, you don't do a mag dump every time you shoot. When I go to shoot, I load my mags before I leave the house and that limits how much ammo I go thru. Even then, I'm always looking for a deal on 9mm and buy it by the case.

I recall hearing from previous ATF rulings that you only had to engrave an SBR if you planned on selling it, anyone know if this is true? If I wanted to SBR my Action Arms UZI I wouldn't want to ruin the value by engraving my name on it

Pretty sure that when you Form 1 a SBR, you have to engrave it no matter what. If you want to SBR your IMI Uzi, then engrave the 10" barrel you'll buy. That's how most Uzi owners do it. No way would I engrave, or cut, the original barrel with the matching serial number.

Off topic... I've been hearing a lot about trusts on this Forum... what is up with trusts and firearms?

Trusts, like corporations, are "legal entities" and thus can own stuff, like class 3 toys. The 2 main reasons people use trusts as a vehicle to own NFA items are (1) they don't require CLEO sign off like individuals need and (2) others on the trust as trustees can be in possession of the NFA items without you needing to be present. Individuals need to be "in control" of the items. That means you have to be present if you want to share.

The upcoming rule change (July 13) will eliminate the CLEO sign off requirement and will require all the people listed on the trust to have prints, photos, and background checks just like individuals have to do now.

 

[NoLimePlease]

When you fill out the form 1 line that asks for the overall length, make sure you figure the shoulder stock in it's extended position, not completely closed like I did.

Why is that? Did you get denied at first?

 

[jbett98]

I didn't get denied, I just didn't know what length to put on the form 1 until I had actually built the SBR, so I guessed how short it would be with the components I was going to order, not how long it could be.
If you think about it, you're building a short barreled firearm, wouldn't the ATF require the minimum length it could be, not the longest.

 

[SCARed]

I left my completed lower with them overnight. I know of a couple FFLs that have them engrave their F2 SBRs and they leave them there for days at a time.

 

[PDXSparky]

I left my completed lower with them overnight. I know of a couple FFLs that have them engrave their F2 SBRs and they leave them there for days at a time.

Thanks for the clarification on that. Good to know that you don't have to stay on site while they do the work.

 

[wired]

Might want to check and see if they actually have an FFL. Many engraving shops don't know that they need to have one if they do firearms engraving without the owner present. If they don't and there is a problem you could be out your receiver for quite a long time especially if its an NFA weapon. Unless I knew for sure a shop had an FFL I wouldnt let them keep anything without me present.

 

[jbett98]

It's worth the wait just to watch them do your engraving.
Make an appointment, show up on time and 25 minutes later you are out the door.

 

[Modeler]

For comparison, here are my two AR-15 SBR's. The top one was laser-engraved by Laserman; the bottom was mechanically engraved at BYE Engraving. The BYE lower has been treated with aluminum black (with uneven results). BYE can only go down to 1/8", while Laserman can go so small that you need a magnifying glass to see it (1/16" is the minimum). BYE meets a certain minimum standard, but if I ever need anything engraved again I'll be going back to Laserman.

 

[wired]

Looking at those I'm glad mine are in the trigger guard and mag well. If I didnt point them ou tto you you'd spend a long time looking. If I had either one of those engravers next door I'd still send mine to Veritas machine.

 

[zul]

Might want to check and see if they actually have an FFL. Many engraving shops don't know that they need to have one if they do firearms engraving without the owner present. If they don't and there is a problem you could be out your receiver for quite a long time especially if its an NFA weapon. Unless I knew for sure a shop had an FFL I wouldnt let them keep anything without me present.

I've never heard of a company needing an FFL to be able to hold onto a customer's firearm overnight. You might be thinking you can't leave an NFA item with a shop without an FFL. But if you take your firearm to them before you SBR it, I don't think there would be a problem. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[wired]

You're wrong. If they take possession of your gun without you there they need an FFL. Not that abstract a concept if you think about it.