another idiots take on gun control

[LDmax]

You both make compelling arguments and in an intelligent and inciteful manner. Thanks for being NWFA members.

Someday I'll learn to incite less and have more insight instead

 

[Flopsweat]

Someday I'll learn to incite less and have more insight instead

There is hope in sight!

 

[uberguy]

Spoken like a guy who has never experienced depression, suicidal ideations, or conversely - come home to find someone you love dead in bed from their own actions.

The 'firearm' wasn't depressed or suicidal.

Adult suicide should be legalized. Depression counseling is available under the ACA and most private health insurance programs. Whether another chooses that path is not your call to make.

 

[SUPER X]

This x 1000%



I have experienced all but the last. This is the reason why many that live in the PNW go out into the woods to do the deed. Somebody is gonna find the mess, but at least it's not usually loved ones.

BTW, insulin is painless and not messy.... gonna support an insulin buyback? Yes, I know not many are offing themselves that way. But if the effort was really about "deaths", they would have prevention for EVERYTHING!!!

Follow the Fat coyotes

 

[P7M13]

Spoken like a guy who has never experienced depression, suicidal ideations, or conversely - come home to find someone you love dead in bed from their own actions.

There were 5 dogs and they were all just...sad. We found her in bed, having taken a lethal amount of pills.

Sorry to read that.
I read the article before jumping in the car and heading north from Salem. On the ride home, I attempted to count the number of people I knew who went down that path. Eleven, plus another two who have vocalized suicidal ideation.
Of the Eleven:

• Three used pills, two failed. Those two are both still alive, and IMO one would have been better off if she had succeeded. The successful one had literally just graduated from medical school.
• One ran out in front of a truck. The driver saw it coming and slammed the brakes. She got knocked over but just barely. She found relief from her depression in SSRIs.
• One tried to top himself but survived after blowing a chunk of his skull off - he used a 38. He finished the job less than a year later with pills.
• Another tried to top himself after his wife filed for divorce. Last I heard he was in intensive therapy.
• One closed the garage door, started the car and asphyxiated himself. Super nice guy, too. His death was tragic, and I *felt* that one.
• The remainder used a gun

Drugs are not the panacea people think they are. I've known a bunch of people on SSRIs, and they become quasi-zombies. However, the work that needs to be done for depression and other mind maladies is hard, and few are up to the task.

Basically, the article was about encapsulating gun control under the guise of "preventing suicide." It's pure bullsheit, but if it sells the ultimate objective, to them, the means justify the end.

Same here, "don't red flag me, bro."

 

[Idaho44]

Why is suicide illegal?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Why is suicide illegal?

Many social norms* and most religions consider the act of suicide abhorrent.

Since most laws are made to fit a social norm for a given society , it should come as no surprise that suicide is illegal.

Also some methods of suicide may involve harming others , like say jumping off a over pass or into the path of a bus or truck....Or the rescue / search attempt for when someone jumps off a bridge into a body of water..
Doing so , may harm others or cause them trauma.
Andy

Edit to add :
Whether or not a social norm is needed , actually the "norm" , artificially in place , etc...may be a topic best left for a different thread..

 

[Mikej]

I get the burn in hell aspect for people of faith, but putting someone in jail for a failed suicide doesn't sound right.

 

[Hueco]

I get the burn in hell aspect for people of faith, but putting someone in jail for a failed suicide doesn't sound right.

It's not the only part of mental health to be treated as criminal when it and society would be better served treating it as a medical or health issue.

 

[Mikej]

It's not the only part of mental health to be treated as criminal when it and society would be better served treating it as a medical or health issue.

The homeless people that live in our hood run varying degrees of mental illness. Some quite functional and living fairly normal lives, other than having no "Home". Then some, whether from drugs, or being in that situation for so long, really need some kind of intervention/help. THAT is something the gov. could put some money into rather than replacing hundreds of street corner curbs all over potland that already have quite functional ramps still.

 

[bbbass]

It's not the only part of mental health to be treated as criminal when it and society would be better served treating it as a medical or health issue.

I often tell a story involving my wife and someone she befriended.

Many years ago my wife joined Toastmasters to help her with business. She met a gal there that she liked. In the course of the friendship, my wife learned that the gal had been involuntarily committed at the Pendleton facility due to her schizophrenia. Her treatment had progressed to heavy tranqs (I forget which ones but the side effects are bad) and started developing Tardive Diskenesia. This gal had a super high IQ and she managed to successfully sue for her release.

After a few months of their friendship, I was invited over to dinner. Things went OK at first. Then talk turned to politics, then turned to religion. She could quote a crapton of Bible verses, but receiving them during polite dinner convo is not my thing. But her intellect was stunning.

Shortly after, the friend made the mistake of starting to go to bars for social drinks and meeting guys. The alcohol was obviously having a bad effect and she started deteriorating. My wife got a phone call to go to the gal's house right away. When she arrived, the gal was naked, food and crap smeared all over herself and everywhere in the house, brand new furniture and carpets destroyed (the gal was an interior decorator) and my wife was shocked. Tried to get her to seek help. Upon leaving, the gal followed her out to the car, naked, and asked for a ride. My wife told her to get some clothes on but the gal refused. She was babbling by that point. The wife came home to ask me what to do (no cellphone then). I told her we should call in a welfare check. In the meantime, the neighbors, who had small kids, had called the cops. The cops arrived, the friend fled the scene in her car, still naked, and led the cops on a merry chase around town. The gal was finally stopped, arrested and charged with various crimes.

Sad, but it was the only way to mandate her the help she needed after her full-blown schizoid episode since we no longer put people in mental institutions against their will.

 

[bbbass]

Drugs are not the panacea people think they are. I've known a bunch of people on SSRIs, and they become quasi-zombies. However, the work that needs to be done for depression and other mind maladies is hard, and few are up to the task.

I don't know what SSRIs they were on, the one prescribed for me was an older formulation called Citalopram after I was diagnosed with Major Depression by a VA psychiatrist. I didn't become zombified, it just smoothed me out a bit. I noticed much less anger and anxiety too. But when O'Bummer started threatening to take firearms away from Veterans who were having even the slightest mental issues, I quit both the SSRI meds and the VA counseling.... it wasn't easy.

Are you sure you are not thinking of other heavier psych meds that have dullness as a side effect? I know drowsiness is listed as a side effect, but the only side effect I personally experienced was a form of sexual dysfunction. (And please folks, lets not get into the discussion of SSRI caused suicidal ideation)

 

[P7M13]

I don't know what SSRIs they were on, the one prescribed for me was an older formulation called Citalopram after I was diagnosed with Major Depression by a VA psychiatrist. I didn't become zombified, it just smoothed me out a bit. I noticed much less anger and anxiety too. But when O'Bummer started threatening to take firearms away from Veterans who were having even the slightest mental issues, I quit both the SSRI meds and the VA counseling.... it wasn't easy.

Are you sure you are not thinking of other heavier psych meds that have dullness as a side effect? I know drowsiness is listed as a side effect, but the only side effect I personally experienced was a form of sexual dysfunction. (And please folks, lets not get into the discussion of SSRI caused suicidal ideation)

Nay to heavier psyche meds. You noticed that it "smoothed me out a bit..." What I was talking about is the folks I know who move into the IDGAF realm. Tell 'em, "dude, your car's on fire..." and they reply, "OK." Several have also commented how it *kills* their libido, and they don't care.
I have heard anecdotal stories of long term use (> 2 years) affecting cognitive processes. These were tech people on SSRIs who noticed they could no longer think or operate at the level like they used to do. Severe vitamin D deficiency can have that effect too.
I tried a SNRI in the '90s for ADD. Whoa - complete blood restriction to my junk to the point that it was numb, followed by acute migraines. No thanks! Dr pulled me off it as soon as the migraines showed up.

 

[bbbass]

Nay to heavier psyche meds. You noticed that it "smoothed me out a bit..." What I was talking about is the folks I know who move into the IDGAF realm. Tell 'em, "dude, your car's on fire..." and they reply, "OK." Several have also commented how it *kills* their libido, and they don't care.
I have heard anecdotal stories of long term use (> 2 years) affecting cognitive processes. These were tech people on SSRIs who noticed they could no longer think or operate at the level like they used to do. Severe vitamin D deficiency can have that effect too.
I tried a SNRI in the '90s for ADD. Whoa - complete blood restriction to my junk to the point that it was numb, followed by acute migraines. No thanks! Dr pulled me off it as soon as the migraines showed up.

Interesting. Giving less of a crap was useful to me, but it never got to the extent you saw, during my three years of usage. I just didn't get mad at my wife and my very difficult Dad and boss as much.

The sexual side effects of Citalopram are the inability to achieve an orgasm. The rest works, so it gets very frustrating. I could never say I didn't give a F* tho. They prescribe another med to counter that effect, that was too much meds for me.

 

[jim97701]

And yet another idiots input

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[OldBroad44]

Gun buybacks vs gun rehoming/rescue programs.

My initial impression of gun buy backs is one of irritation because they are intended to promote the philosophy that fewer guns and gun owners is desireable and citizens who disarm themselves and become helpless to defend themselves are virtuous instead of irresponsible. I also feel somewhat cynical because photos of the guns turned in show mostly pretty cheap guns. But even a cheap gun in the hands of a good guy facing a home invasion can be a life savor. I know. I've been there. Another reason I disapprove is I hate waste. And destroying the guns promotes the idea that it is guns themselves which are evil or dangerous.

But as I read this thread I have some second thoughts. I'm recalling comments from people who turned in guns to such programs over the decades. I think the most typical such person is usually female, has no familiarity with guns, is somewhat to seriously against having a gun in her home but who has inherited a gun or two along with the house when spouse or male relative died. She doesn't know enough about guns to even know how to sell them and doesn't want to learn. Its not a big collection of guns or collectors items that are valuable enough to be listed in wills or insurance. Generally the gun has been sitting around in a drawer or closet, possibly loaded, accessible to thieves, suicidal friends, and the children of guests.

It might be a good idea to get such guns out of such hands. Rather than a government buy back program, however, I propose a rescue or rehoming program. It could be run by any local gun store, gun club, or gun organization. For a small fee the rescue organization would accept the gun and relieve gun-shy donor of the responsibility for its existence, then would sell the gun and keep half the proceeds and use half to support gun training programs, volunteer EMT, volunteer firemen, and Search and Rescue programs. Gun safety courses in kids summer camps. Etc. What is paid for guns in buy back programs is small enough that I doubt paying a fee such as $10 or $20 would turn off too many, and it would help cover transfer fees as well as discourage those unlikely to follow through with the sale. And we would have guns and the gun rehoming and training programs linked in peoples minds with other approved of safety enhancing organizations such as EMTs, volunteer fire fighters, and Search and Rescue.

 

[Idaho44]

How many Leica M's and Nikon SLR's etc. were sold at bargain basement prices because they were too complicated to use by the surviving widow?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Gun Control...
Just like any law , restriction , ban etc....they only "work" if one wishes to abide by them.
Criminals by their action...do not abide by laws and such...so many if not all laws, restrictions bans and the like in regards to firearms , only serve to make it difficult for those who are law abiding to own firearms.

Also it has been said to not judge a whole group by the actions of a few within a particular group...Why then is is "okay" to to so , with gun owners...?
I and millions of other gun owners are not the problem here....criminals are...why should we suffer the consequences of someone else's actions...?
Andy

The problem with your argument is that you're applying logic.

Look at the numbers: 400 million guns (at least) in private hands in the USA owned by 72 million people. ~15,000 homicides committed with firearm on an average year. That means 0.02% of gun owners use their firearm to murder another person. Of those, ~11,000 are "prohibited persons" as defined in the law, meaning 0.005% of previously law-abiding adult citizens use their firearm to murder someone -- most often a domestic partner or an acquaintance. That is FIVE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT. And that 0.001% of all guns in circulation are used to commit homicide. That is ONE ONE-THOUSANDTH OF ONE PERCENT.

Tragic as they are, true incidents of random homicidal violence committed with firearms by non-prohibited persons against non-acquainted people are so small as not to register. The Vegas incident, school shootings (though likely some acquaintance there), workplace violence (especially on a military base where our service members are not permitted to defend themselves in the cruelest turn of irony), etc., make excellent headlines but constitute the lowest objective danger to the average person with respect to firearms. You are 6.5 times more likely to die of a lightning strike... and 934 times more likely to die in a car crash (regardless of fault).

But the FEELZ!! OH MY GOD GUNS!! Enough of your logic and your facts!!

The anti-gun crowd has proven to be expert at ginning up hysteria and painting us as bloodthirsty homicidal maniacs just "looking for an excuse." And now we're all white supremacists. THE FBI SAID SO!!! The President repeated it!! They would not lie to us -- they care so deeply about each and every one of us!! The sad reality is the antis are just that much better at tilting at windmills as we are at countering their preposterous twaddle. We need to get better. And fast.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

The problem with your argument is that you're applying logic.

Look at the numbers: 400 million guns (at least) in private hands in the USA owned by 72 million people. ~15,000 homicides committed with firearm on an average year. That means 0.02% of gun owners use their firearm to murder another person. Of those, ~11,000 are "prohibited persons" as defined in the law, meaning 0.005% of previously law-abiding adult citizens use their firearm to murder someone -- most often a domestic partner or an acquaintance. That is FIVE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT. And that 0.001% of all guns in circulation are used to commit homicide. That is ONE ONE-THOUSANDTH OF ONE PERCENT.

Tragic as they are, true incidents of random homicidal violence committed with firearms by non-prohibited persons against non-acquainted people are so small as not to register. The Vegas incident, school shootings (though likely some acquaintance there), workplace violence (especially on a military base where our service members are not permitted to defend themselves in the cruelest turn of irony), etc., make excellent headlines but constitute the lowest objective danger to the average person with respect to firearms. You are 6.5 times more likely to die of a lightning strike... and 934 times more likely to die in a car crash (regardless of fault).

But the FEELZ!! OH MY GOD GUNS!! Enough of your logic and your facts!!

The anti-gun crowd has proven to be expert at ginning up hysteria and painting us as bloodthirsty homicidal maniacs just "looking for an excuse." And now we're all white supremacists. THE FBI SAID SO!!! The President repeated it!! They would not lie to us -- they care so deeply about each and every one of us!! The sad reality is the antis are just that much better at tilting at windmills as we are at countering their preposterous twaddle. We need to get better. And fast.

I try to use logic , or what I consider logic , when I can...so it is not a problem...for me...
If other people don't use logic or otherwise think differently...then again , not a problem.

I can not "help" how others think.
I can only do , "help" , think , act etc...as I feel that is best for me.

A big issue with logic , wisdom , etc...is that one man's wisdom is another man's folly.

So in short its not a problem with how I think....
It is however , problematic how others think and if their thinking , way of doing things , etc....affects me.
Andy

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I try to use logic , or what I consider logic , when I can...so it is not a problem...for me...
If other people don't use logic or otherwise think differently...then again , not a problem.

I can not "help" how others think.
I can only do , "help" , think , act etc...as I feel that is best for me.

A big issue with logic , wisdom , etc...is that one man's wisdom is another man's folly.

So in short its not a problem with how I think....
It is however , problematic how others think and if their thinking , way of doing things , etc....affects me.
Andy

We agree here. I was being cheeky when I suggested your use of logic was a "problem." It is, rather, my indictment of our poorly-educated society and the easily-manipulated sheep who gleefully ignore rational, factual statements that contradict their fragile world view.