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Fake or Not?


At first, I suspected this was a faked end of war piece. Collectors of such things seem to prize "last ditch" German weapons. In his listing, the seller himself seems to have doubts.

I'd thought that these with the phosphate finish were seen only in the very last guns, a few with H (second series) serial number prefixes, but mostly with K (second series) prefixes. The gun in this listing has a C (2nd series) prefix. However, in re-reading my VIS Radom book, by Wm. York, there is mention of some outlier phosphate finished guns noted with A and B (2nd series) serial numbers. Which are considered rare; they are assumed to be assembled out of serial sequence at the end of the war. From pistol kits shipped from Poland that got lost or whatever. Which requires a bit of explanation.

When the Russians were close to overrunning Poland, the manufacturing equipment and contents of the VIS factory were moved to Austria. Steyr had been managing the Radom plant and making the barrels. Parts were being shipped around, trains were getting blown up, so weird things were happening.

The plain 623 acceptance mark on the slide looks correct for very late production. The little eagle proof on the barrel lug looks like it was etched on, not stamped.

Re. the holster. Initially, I'd thought that might be a GI-fabricated thing. However, also in York's book he states the Germans made several shoulder holster variations, all unmarked. Looking at the pictures again, it can be seen that the holster body has the strap on the back for belt fitting. Which shows that no matter who made the shoulder fittings, it probably had originally been made with a full flap covering and for belt wear.

The grips are a little troubling. The concentric grooves are obviously hand carved. But they look old. Typically, these were done by machine and the grooves are perfectly spaced. Then again, most of the workers in the factory by this time were Jewish forced laborers from nearby concentration camps. Maybe there was one worker in a corner who was told to make some by hand. In his book, York says sometimes wooden field replacements were made, but this gun was made so late in the war that you'd doubt it would've acquired a set of those.

So this gun may or may not be very rare, or may or may not be fake. Personal examination might clear it up. Several maybes.
 
Last Edited:
Fake or not....Yes.... :D

Late war guns can be a mixture of parts and quality.

Also something to consider is the after war souvenir trade / Black market / GI PX ration trades...
Many firearms were made with issue parts or left over parts...
Or even antique parts for occupying GI's.

Not saying that the pistol in OP is any of the above..since as noted in the OP....Personal examination is must do in these cases.
Andy
 
Here is all you need to know about this seller...

Payment MethodsUSPS Money Order

NEVER DO THIS...........................................................................................⬆️

You can get a refund if seller "claims" the money order never showed but it will be two months of hell to do it.
I purchased one "pay now" with a cc and it was seamless but the whole usps deal really turned me off to GB.
Live and learn.
 
NEVER DO THIS...........................................................................................⬆️
Agree emphatically with this. Using a credit card gives you a large degree of insurance with the dispute feature. Do not be tempted with "saving" 3 or 4 percent by not using CC.
 
I thought people did not like using credit cards because they could track your purchases. I have never had a problem with a USPS Money order - maybe I am just lucky.
 
I thought people did not like using credit cards because they could track your purchases. I have never had a problem with a USPS Money order - maybe I am just lucky.
Same. Been buying/selling guns on the Intratubes for over two decades and nary a problem with either credit card or USPS Money Order.
 
Some of the individuals selling on gun broker are private citizens and do not have the ability to accept credit cards. Some of my best deals on Gub Broker are from private citizens selling thier guns and they are glad to accept USPS money orders. If your going through a business a credit card is the way to go.
 
Fake or Not?


At first, I suspected this was a faked end of war piece. Collectors of such things seem to prize "last ditch" German weapons. In his listing, the seller himself seems to have doubts.

I'd thought that these with the phosphate finish were seen only in the very last guns, a few with H (second series) serial number prefixes, but mostly with K (second series) prefixes. The gun in this listing has a C (2nd series) prefix. However, in re-reading my VIS Radom book, by Wm. York, there is mention of some outlier phosphate finished guns noted with A and B (2nd series) serial numbers. Which are considered rare; they are assumed to be assembled out of serial sequence at the end of the war. From pistol kits shipped from Poland that got lost or whatever. Which requires a bit of explanation.

When the Russians were close to overrunning Poland, the manufacturing equipment and contents of the VIS factory were moved to Austria. Steyr had been managing the Radom plant and making the barrels. Parts were being shipped around, trains were getting blown up, so weird things were happening.

The plain 623 acceptance mark on the slide looks correct for very late production. The little eagle proof on the barrel lug looks like it was etched on, not stamped.

Re. the holster. Initially, I'd thought that might be a GI-fabricated thing. However, also in York's book he states the Germans made several shoulder holster variations, all unmarked. Looking at the pictures again, it can be seen that the holster body has the strap on the back for belt fitting. Which shows that no matter who made the shoulder fittings, it probably had originally been made with a full flap covering and for belt wear.

The grips are a little troubling. The concentric grooves are obviously hand carved. But they look old. Typically, these were done by machine and the grooves are perfectly spaced. Then again, most of the workers in the factory by this time were Jewish forced laborers from nearby concentration camps. Maybe there was one worker in a corner who was told to make some by hand. In his book, York says sometimes wooden field replacements were made, but this gun was made so late in the war that you'd doubt it would've acquired a set of those.

So this gun may or may not be very rare, or may or may not be fake. Personal examination might clear it up. Several maybes.
I'd post this over at gunboards.com.
 
I thought people did not like using credit cards because they could track your purchases.
Who is they? The government? If they are looking that closely, they can just get a court order to examine postal and bank records if they want to. You may be able to buy a USPS money order anonymously, but once it gets cashed, there is linkage to somebody. And that somebody probably has records to link the MO back to you. I don't worry too much about it. I've owned guns for years, I'm probably already on every list anyway. The only way to stay "clean" on that is to never have bought a gun through a dealer.

USPS money orders are popular in some areas of commerce because they come with no strings attached. Sellers know they are good, because they must be purchased with cash, the PO won't take any other medium for payment. Therefore, they can't be recalled for insufficient funds. Once they get cashed, a paper trail starts that can lead anywhere. Crooks like them for the same reason, they cannot suffer a stop payment. The PO won't even accept an inquiry on one until 30 days have passed. By then, a crook has done his worst.

Some of the individuals selling on gun broker are private citizens and do not have the ability to accept credit cards. Some of my best deals on Gun Broker are from private citizens selling their guns and they are glad to accept USPS money orders. If you're going through a business a credit card is the way to go.
This works both ways. Some buyers won't do business if they can't use a CC because they don't want to give up the ability to dispute a charge if they get screwed. This isn't usually a problem with face-to-face use of a CC, but it's more likely with an at-distance transaction. As a result, this narrows the number of buyers for a given object, unless it's so rare as to overcome buyer resistance to the CC situation. It can take longer to sell if CC isn't accepted for payment.

Yes, because there may be some buyers who won't buy with a money order, the final selling price may trend lower. Good for buyer, not good for seller. The buyer has to decide if the reduced price is worth the possibility of problems inherent to cash-type transactions.

I don't know all the ins and outs, but I believe anybody can set up to take CC payment on GB. You can set up what is called a payment gateway that enables CC payment to be taken, but of course it involves seller fees.
 
Who is they? The government? If they are looking that closely, they can just get a court order to examine postal and bank records if they want to. You may be able to buy a USPS money order anonymously, but once it gets cashed, there is linkage to somebody. And that somebody probably has records to link the MO back to you. I don't worry too much about it. I've owned guns for years, I'm probably already on every list anyway. The only way to stay "clean" on that is to never have bought a gun through a dealer.

USPS money orders are popular in some areas of commerce because they come with no strings attached. Sellers know they are good, because they must be purchased with cash, the PO won't take any other medium for payment. Therefore, they can't be recalled for insufficient funds. Once they get cashed, a paper trail starts that can lead anywhere. Crooks like them for the same reason, they cannot suffer a stop payment. The PO won't even accept an inquiry on one until 30 days have passed. By then, a crook has done his worst.


This works both ways. Some buyers won't do business if they can't use a CC because they don't want to give up the ability to dispute a charge if they get screwed. This isn't usually a problem with face-to-face use of a CC, but it's more likely with an at-distance transaction. As a result, this narrows the number of buyers for a given object, unless it's so rare as to overcome buyer resistance to the CC situation. It can take longer to sell if CC isn't accepted for payment.

Yes, because there may be some buyers who won't buy with a money order, the final selling price may trend lower. Good for buyer, not good for seller. The buyer has to decide if the reduced price is worth the possibility of problems inherent to cash-type transactions.

I don't know all the ins and outs, but I believe anybody can set up to take CC payment on GB. You can set up what is called a payment gateway that enables CC payment to be taken, but of course it involves seller fees.
Well I have "knock on wood" never had a problem with a USPS money order and I have been doing this for a few decades. I will stick with what works. Makes me wonder who your doing business with.
 
I have to echo what @CountryGent and @JRuby have said, I've done numerous deals on Gunbroker using USPS Money Orders and have never had an issue. Digging into the sellers feedback is critical and dealing only with established members with good feedback will go a long way to making the experience successful.

Doing your due diligence is necessary to successful deals.
 
Digging into the sellers feedback is critical and dealing only with established members with good feedback will go a long way to making the experience successful.
Absolutely agree with this; I have left any number of listings after reviewing feedback. It's surprising how many sellers on GB have crummy feedback.
 
Makes me wonder who your doing business with.
Just the usual lot of buyers and sellers on GB. I've lost a sale on GB because the would-be buyer didn't read the instructions about payment. Once he discovered that I wasn't taking credit cards, he backed out of the sale. And you have a little dance to do with GB to get your fees back.

I have used USPS money orders myself for GB purchases, once in a while. But not for anything that costs three digits. I confess that these days, I usually won't bid on listings that won't take CC.

Then there was a time that something I bought on GB was shipped incomplete. The seller was unresponsive. I finally got ahold of him, probably by accident; he assured me of completion of the deal. It never happened. I'd used a CC, my recourse was a partial dispute and I got my money back for the deficient part of the transaction. But I wouldn't have using a USPS money order. Fear of negative feedback response on GB doesn't seem to be there for many sellers.

never had a problem with a USPS money order
It's not a problem with the money order; it can be a problem with the person to whom you are sending it. Which may or may not even be a legit seller if it involves a hacked account. Which is becoming more and more prevalent. Gunbroker is one of the last venues where cash-type payments are tendered for non-face-to-face transactions. Crooks know it.
 
I should add that credit card transactions aren't proof from fraud on Gunbroker, either. Just as Amazon is afflicted with CC fraud from hacked accounts. But you are more likely to be made whole.
 

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