An Email from Arizona

[Stomper]

They'll be back with more pablum puking nonsense to muddy the waters

And they'll say whatever facts, figures or examples your are using ar WRONG, illegitimate, and that you're too stupid and brainwashed to do the "proper math" and discount everything you say.


They remind me of a smart-mouth, lazy teenager... they have an excuse and/or an answer for EVERYTHING... except Buggy, of course!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

And they'll say whatever facts, figures or examples your are using ar WRONG, illegitimate, and that you're too stupid and brainwashed to do the "proper math" and discount everything you say.


They remind me of a smart-mouth, lazy teenager... they have an excuse and/or an answer for EVERYTHING... except Buggy, of course!

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=56494

Just when liberals thought it was safe to start identifying themselves as such, an acclaimed, veteran psychiatrist is making the case that the ideology motivating them is actually a mental disorder.

"Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded," says Dr. Lyle Rossiter, author of the new book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." "Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

 

[Buddymack]

You're talking to another vet chief...so take that card and shove it right back where you pulled it out of.

I respect your opinion, too bad it is asking for too much for you to do the same. I can be as critical of my government as I please, and this law has "lets piss on the Bill of Rights" all over it. Many critics of the "Patriot Act" were labeled as "terrorist sympathizers" and "unpatriotic".

Well, sir...when the Feds come knocking at your door because you fit the profile of a "right-wing militia-type terrorist" because of your race, military background and political beliefs, don't come crying to me for help.

Yeah I run into a few folks that served that are on the left of things usually it is a good reason to keep our Armies and Airforces all volunteer..
This does not step on anyone's bill of rights if you would actually read the bill how it is written there has to be a other issues involved other than just pulling someone over for their race..
but it just comes to show you when we ignore a problem we are not always going to like the Governments answer to the problem who in my opinion is the originator of the problem because many on the left just wanted to Acorn their way into power..
so I can pull that card and play it all I want ..
I am an American and I would like to challenge you to go spend some time with the people affected on the border area instead of sitting here safely away from the blast zone, and say it won't happen here ..

by the way ...this administration has already had his cronies stopping people for having Don't tread on my bumper stickers so he just steps all over real Americans rights without even a public law passed...he just does it as sneaky as he does everything else..

ACORN ...cough cough ...

 

[Buddymack]

As a white man that has had black girlfriends I can say with experience that I have experienced racism from black people when accompanying a black woman in public.

The fact is all races are racist I accept it and can live with it without really feeling the need to label people as monsters!

The crybaby liberals need to get over themselves, most of them would be the first people to cross the street if they saw a minority in there vicinity on a dark street!

A lot of people don't understand what real racism really is, many in todays world think you can't disagree with a black President because it would be a racist thing to do..
but if you want to see what real racism is just go to a KKK rally or I don't know the Rev. Wrongs church Obama went to for ......twenty years! just go there as a white guy and sit down ...uhuh

 

[Blitzkrieg]

A lot of people don't understand what real racism really is, many in todays world think you can't disagree with a black President because it would be a racist thing to do..
but if you want to see what real racism is just go to a KKK rally or I don't know the Rev. Wrongs church Obama went to for ......twenty years! just go there as a white guy and sit down ...uhuh

You neglected to mention

Black Panthers

Nation of Islam

La Raza

 

[bugeye]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=56494

I've said in at least several posts that we don't have good numbers to evaluate the impact of illegals, so it's been pretty much your side with the insane numbers, and me listing the best the I could find - including figures from right wing groups. If you ever feel that any number I've given is wrong let me know and I'll check, I value being corrected, because I value good data used to make good decisions far more than winning. Of course my primary goal in here is to have fun, and I'm crazy enough to have fun arguing, but according to the history of the postings that isn't something that only afflicts the left, lol.

I have never said that rightieism is a mental disorder, instead I let you guys prove it with every post.

 

[Trlsmn]

I've said in at least several posts that we don't have good numbers to evaluate the impact of illegals, so it's been pretty much your side with the insane numbers, and me listing the best the I could find - including figures from right wing groups. If you ever feel that any number I've given is wrong let me know and I'll check, I value being corrected, because I value good data used to make good decisions far more than winning. Of course my primary goal in here is to have fun, and I'm crazy enough to have fun arguing, but according to the history of the postings that isn't something that only afflicts the left, lol.

I have never said that rightieism is a mental disorder, instead I let you guys prove it with every post.

So answer me this Bugeye what is an acceptable amount of expense that the American tax payers should absorb for the illegals?

 

[bugeye]

And they'll say whatever facts, figures or examples your are using ar WRONG, illegitimate, and that you're too stupid and brainwashed to do the "proper math" and discount everything you say.


They remind me of a smart-mouth, lazy teenager... they have an excuse and/or an answer for EVERYTHING... except Buggy, of course!

Honest, if you ever come up with a good fact supported argument I'd be the first to congratulate you. I attack your facts because they are BS not because they support your point of view. It is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel because almost all the posts in here are started by righties and are based on the 'indoctrination of the day', so what we deal with is brainwashing. Like all brainwashing it is flawed, so I point that out because that is what I do.

All my politics can be defined as using the best facts I can find to make decisions, really that's it. I think that is the best way and I am trying to infect you with it. This disease is liberalism.

 

[Trlsmn]

Honest, if you ever come up with a good fact supported argument I'd be the first to congratulate you. I attack your facts because they are BS not because they support your point of view. It is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel because almost all the posts in here are started by righties and are based on the 'indoctrination of the day', so what we deal with is brainwashing. Like all brainwashing it is flawed, so I point that out because that is what I do.

All my politics can be defined as using the best facts I can find to make decisions, really that's it. I think that is the best way and I am trying to infect you with it. This disease is liberalism.

Again I ask

So answer me this Bugeye what is an acceptable amount of expense that the American tax payers should absorb for the illegals?


Second question

You being the hypothetical Arizona/California etc.. household with two wage earners. Is $700 a year (every year) out of Mr. and Mrs Bugeye's budget to the direct benefit of illegal immigrants acceptable to you? Totally hypothetical, don't argue this isn't the cost! If that is the cost are you OK cutting the check?

 

[bugeye]

So answer me this Bugeye what is an acceptable amount of expense that the American tax payers should absorb for the illegals?

OK, I'll take the bait.
And I know no matter what I say you'll say it's too much!

I think 30 billion a year is acceptable, that is far cheaper than say an equivalent number of our domestic poor people. You do realize that the state subsidizes poor people right? That 30 billion figure divided by 20 million comes to $1500 each. If the state ended up raising 5 million citizens children because their parents were deported (that is about half the kids I'd think we would end up with) and they cost us $5000 each for the state to raise them (that's about half what I think it would actually cost): 5e6 x 5e3 = 25 billion bucks.

As a contrast we currently have about 2.5 million people in prison in this country, and they cost us about $50,000 per year and they pretty much produce nothing of value (they aren't allowed to) and that comes to 125 billion dollars.

As to the 2nd question that just appeared, yes, it is currently in our tax bill. The feds should be providing more funds to the states with the higher percentage of illegals, this is a national problem. Cost per taxpayer is about $300 each for illegals per year, vs, an additional $1000 each for our wars in the middle east, and $1,250 for the criminals in the pen.

 

[Trlsmn]

OK, I'll take the bait.
And I know no matter what I say you'll say it's too much!

I think 30 billion a year is acceptable, that is far cheaper than say an equivalent number of our domestic poor people.

The size of the workforce in the USA is about 150 million so 30 billion per year comes out to $200 per year for every American tax payer. Figure an average work-span of 50 years and every single worker in the united states will pay out $10,000 each or approx $20,000 per household for the care and feeding of illegal immigrants.

You do realize that the state subsidizes poor people right?

Yes poor American citizens. We are talking apples and oranges here.

That 30 billion figure divided by 20 million comes to $1500 each. If the state ended up raising 5 million citizens children because their parents were deported (that is about half the kids I'd think we would end up with) and they cost us $5000 each for the state to raise them (that's about half what I think it would actually cost): 5e6 x 5e3 = 25 billion bucks.

Yes you highlighted a problem but amnesty and cash assistance will not stop the flow of anchor babies it will only encourage more of the same.

As a contrast we currently have about 2.5 million people in prison in this country, and they cost us about $50,000 per year and they pretty much produce nothing of value (they aren't allowed to) and that comes to 125 billion dollars.

And what would this have to do with the illegal problem? How will closing the boarder and deporting illegals do anything "but" reduce the burden on prisons?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I've said in at least several posts that we don't have good numbers to evaluate the impact of illegals, so it's been pretty much your side with the insane numbers, and me listing the best the I could find - including figures from right wing groups. If you ever feel that any number I've given is wrong let me know and I'll check, I value being corrected, because I value good data used to make good decisions far more than winning. Of course my primary goal in here is to have fun, and I'm crazy enough to have fun arguing, but according to the history of the postings that isn't something that only afflicts the left, lol.

I have never said that rightieism is a mental disorder, instead I let you guys prove it with every post.

I've said all I have to say on the subject!

 

[Riot]

It isn't pink fluffy rabbits and little old white ladies in wheelchairs that are FLOODING accross the border ILLEGALLY, it's brown skined Latinos of every size and shape. If it were pink fluffy rabbits and/or little old white ladies in wheelchairs that were the VAST MAJORITY of offenders, I'd profile them too... you get over it.


... and for the record I'm ALL FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION, my FIRST wife was a Latino that I brought back from Honduras during my Army days (NOT an easy process.. the US and Honduran Governments, and the ARMY to deal with... she latter ran off with another dude when I was subsequently deployed overseas, again). Before I met my current wife, I had a Mexican-American girlfriend that was a 1st generation US citizen born of LEGAL immigrants... my CURRENT wife and three kids are Australian citizens that I brought over here, and let me tell you something... I had to PROVE with all sorts of documentation that I could financially support them BEFORE I could even start the immigration-visa process which costs rediculous sums of money... only to get treated VERY rudely by the embassy workers/processors of MY OWN COUNTRY that I served for 8-yrs. I have absolutely NO sympathy for illegal aliens (of ANY nationality) that get deported.

Furthermore, it's THE LAW that ALL resident aliens MUST carry their "green card" with them at ALL TIMES when out in public. If a resident alien gets poppped without it they'd better be able to get someone to bring it to the scene POST HASTE, and if they are ILLEGAL they won't have one anyway so its not too hard to figure your way through that process. With the passage of the "Real ID Act", all driver licenses are only SUPPOSED to be available to citizens and aliens who are here LEGALLY, so if they get pulled over for whatever reason and they have a license they are in the system and "good to go" (most of the time), if no license then one could probe deeper in the "legal status". It's NOT rocket science.

BTW- the analogy of "we'd be screaming if they profiled gun owners" is bogus as well... firstly owning arms is a RIGHT proclaimed/guaranteed by the Constitution... Immigration is NOT a right, it's a priveledge granted by PERMISSION.


PS- I have ALWAYS hated how American "justice" and "doing the right thing" are always driven by the financial "costs" these days... doing the RIGHT THING has never been easy... I mean seriously, "it's so old fashioned... NOBODY'S DOING IT THESE DAYS!"

Again, you do realize that there are American citizens...legals...RESIDENTIAL AMERICAN CITIZENS that are Hispanic, right? Not every Hispanic is a migrant worker, illegal immigrant (or even an immigrant for that matter). A good number of Hispanics were BORN in the United States. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they are covered under the US Constitution and the 4th Amendment applies to them as it does to you or I.

Violation of their Constitutional rights is nothing short of rediculous and shouldn't be tollerated...the fact that many of you change the subject again and again to make this issue anything short of RACIAL PROFILING and a CLEAR VIOLATION OF A US CITIZEN'S BILL OF RIGHTS is astonishing to me.

If you were born in this country with brown skin and were pulled over for doing nothing more than being Hispanic you would be singing a different tune right now. No LEO should EVER be granted any power that violates the very Constitution that they are sworn to protect!

 

[2zuks]

Again, you do realize that there are American citizens...legals...RESIDENTIAL AMERICAN CITIZENS that are Hispanic, right? Not every Hispanic is a migrant worker, illegal immigrant (or even an immigrant for that matter). A good number of Hispanics were BORN in the United States. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they are covered under the US Constitution and the 4th Amendment applies to them as it does to you or I.

Violation of their Constitutional rights is nothing short of rediculous and shouldn't be tollerated...the fact that many of you change the subject again and again to make this issue anything short of RACIAL PROFILING and a CLEAR VIOLATION OF A US CITIZEN'S BILL OF RIGHTS is astonishing to me.

If you were born in this country with brown skin and were pulled over for doing nothing more than being Hispanic you would be singing a different tune right now. No LEO should EVER be granted any power that violates the very Constitution that they are sworn to protect!

I would like for you to show me the specific part of the Arizona bill that concerns you as to racial profiling.

There is nothing in the bill that allows racial profiling. It requires "lawful contact" to begin with. On top of that, the officer has to have reasonable suspicion that the person and or people are illegal that isn't based on race. The Arizona law pretty much mimics the federal law, it just allows the state to enforce it since the feds aren't. Have you looked into the law, or are you just barking what you heard on MSNBC?

So again, I would like you to tell me the specific language that you find racist and that allows racial profiling?

 

[bugeye]

The size of the workforce in the USA is about 150 million so 30 billion per year comes out to $200 per year for every American tax payer. Figure an average work-span of 50 years and every single worker in the united states will pay out $10,000 each or approx $20,000 per household for the care and feeding of illegal immigrants.



Yes poor American citizens. We are talking apples and oranges here.



Yes you highlighted a problem but amnesty and cash assistance will not stop the flow of anchor babies it will only encourage more of the same.



And what would this have to do with the illegal problem? How will closing the boarder and deporting illegals do anything "but" reduce the burden on prisons?

Thoughtful post, when I expected brick bats.

Your right on #1, but I use 100 million as that is close to representing actual taxpayers, not just people that file the returns or people that actually get back more than they pay in.

With amnesty and citizenship, the cost would probably increase as they would be eligible for more public support, that of course would be offset to some extent by other changes regarding their now legal status, perhaps an increase in income. I really don't know how to that figure, too complex and I have a day job.

With amnesty and citizenship programs for the current illegals, I've said we need draconian laws and enforcement to avoid bringing in any more. I see this as a one time deal because we haven't done anything to prevent the influx, not as an ongoing deal. Before this program starts these laws need to be passed with the understanding that they won't apply to anyone who has been here for some period of time (maybe 6 months?). Interesting point though, perhaps this would be a good time to change the citizenship rules for children of illegals, however I'm against any x post facto changes to these laws, that is just too nuts. We could also add that they are not allowed to vote in general elections for ten years because they have been illegal, if that is legal. This would prevent any instant disruptions of elections. We could also make a stay of some years here without making any trouble as a criteria for citizenship, they should be able to prove somehow how long they have been here if they have been doing anything useful at all. Of course, that would entail granting their employers amnesty too, and that stinks but the whole thing stinks anyway. I'm not for open borders or for bringing in people, I am for fairly dealing with the ones we seem to have let in for someones benefit (yeah, not you not me).

The prison issue is interesting and I know very little about it at this point, but the large numbers of illegals in CA are in prison on hold. This is called ICE hold and I believe that is being forced by the IMS. Some of these people are in there only for being illegal too, how many I don't know, the net has been a very disappointing source of good info on these issues. The people on these holds should be either sent home, prosecuted, or let go and put on a program to grant them legal status. Since I have no idea how many would fall into each category I can't estimate costs for that.

 

[bugeye]

Again, you do realize that there are American citizens...legals...RESIDENTIAL AMERICAN CITIZENS that are Hispanic, right? Not every Hispanic is a migrant worker, illegal immigrant (or even an immigrant for that matter). A good number of Hispanics were BORN in the United States. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they are covered under the US Constitution and the 4th Amendment applies to them as it does to you or I.

Violation of their Constitutional rights is nothing short of rediculous and shouldn't be tollerated...the fact that many of you change the subject again and again to make this issue anything short of RACIAL PROFILING and a CLEAR VIOLATION OF A US CITIZEN'S BILL OF RIGHTS is astonishing to me.

If you were born in this country with brown skin and were pulled over for doing nothing more than being Hispanic you would be singing a different tune right now. No LEO should EVER be granted any power that violates the very Constitution that they are sworn to protect!

Good point, 30% of AZ's population is citizen hispanic!

And I can relate to your LEO hypothetical, why just a few weeks ago they discriminated against me, just because I was driving badly, the nerve of them!

 

[2zuks]

I think 30 billion a year is acceptable, that is far cheaper than say an equivalent number of our domestic poor people.

O.k. So you are basically saying that every criminal from any country has the same right to taxpayer money as our CITIZENS do?

You do realize that the state subsidizes poor people right?

Yes, and many of them are illegals already. Again, you are comparing citizens with non-citizens. Why don't we just have people send us letters of demand from all countries so we can make sure they get everything they want while our country further spirals out of control?

As a contrast we currently have about 2.5 million people in prison in this country, and they cost us about $50,000 per year and they pretty much produce nothing of value (they aren't allowed to) and that comes to 125 billion dollars.

Yep, and again many illegals make up a good number of that population. They should be the first deported so that we don't have to deal with that expense.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I would like for you to show me the specific part of the Arizona bill that concerns you as to racial profiling.

There is nothing in the bill that allows racial profiling. It requires "lawful contact" to begin with. On top of that, the officer has to have reasonable suspicion that the person and or people are illegal that isn't based on race. The Arizona law pretty much mimics the federal law, it just allows the state to enforce it since the feds aren't. Have you looked into the law, or are you just barking what you heard on MSNBC?

So again, I would like you to tell me the specific language that you find racist and that allows racial profiling?

You're confusing them with facts again

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yes, and many of them are illegals already. Again, you are comparing citizens with non-citizens. Why don't we just have people send us letters of demand from all countries so we can make sure they get everything they want while our country further spirals out of control?

We already do that, it's called the UN

 

[2zuks]

You're confusing them with facts again

LOL. I forgot to mention that nowhere in Bugeye's cost analysis is the cost of the huge sums of US money that is sent back to Mexico by the illegals.