An Email from Arizona

[2zuks]

Schadenfreude: pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

The magnitude of our illegal problem is staggering, we are talking about 20+ million people who have a direct relationship with at least 10 million children who are US citizens. But since your all so down with this plan, how about you spend a few minutes figuring out what expulsion of this many people would do to our economy, how much raising the left behind kids would cost and how to deal with their anger over the situation, how much violence would be done by the people being expelled, how will the owners of real estate and businesses that can no longer be profitable be compensated, who will do the jobs these folks are doing, What arangements have to be made with other countries, how you will round up these people and ship them out, how to deal with citizens who will be accidently rounded up and shipped, and how such an action will make the US look to the rest of the world.

How do we know that deportation will be cheaper, I mean, is there even any financial incentive for creating so much misery over simply allowing them to become citizens?
If we don't know that, and we don't, then what are we waving in the wind here?

I will first start out by saying that with the staggering unemployment rate we have under the current administration, I am sure there is a lot of people who will gladly take the jobs the illegals have right now. Some of you guys keep saying that the illegals fill jobs on farms and cleaning motels ect. What yyou are missing is that they also have a lot of skilled labor jobs in construction. Some of you may be above such a job, but I know a considerable number of people who have been layed off, in spite of the stimulus, and would take the $20 plus dollar an hour jobs that are left behind. I know, "illegals do jobs that americans won't do". I know it's coming. Well, those jobs were done before we were overrun with illegals and are still getting done in the states that haven't been overran illegals. If we somehow are left with jobs that Americans won't do I have a great idea on how to fill them. We let in the IMMIGRANTS THAT WANT TO COME HERE LEGALLY TO FILL THE JOBS! We don't reward criminals by giving them citizenship.

Economically, I think that it would be a very positive thing to deport the illegals. Take California for example. California has the largest population of illegals in the US, as well as being a leader in crime rate. 50% of their prison population is filled with illegals. Figure out the staggering cost that California is paying every year to house that number of people in the prisons, not to mention the cost to pay for their legal costs. Now you can get to the business of trying to figure out the enormous cost of their crimes on society, both in blood and in property damage. Figure in the impact on the healthcare system. Figure in welfare for the large families, and housing. Now consider that the largest part of Mexico's economy is the money sent to them by the Mexican's that are here. California is bankrupt. Of course that isn't the only reason why they are bankrupt, but I would throw it out there that it is definitely a significant contributing factor.

Now to address your concern of what other countries would think of us. I could care less what other countries would think of us. We would be enforcing our immigration laws which are much less strict than those other counrties own laws. I have grown very tired of this overly pc time period. We are driving ourselves into a third world counrty catering to everyone but ourselves.

Again, you act as if the only time these people are going to cause damage is if we round them up. They are causing damage every single day! You may not be exposed to it, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Besides just thumbing their nose at our immigration laws, many of these people are drug dealers and gang members. They aren't all the lowly motel cleaners who are want to be model citizens. Don't forget when you are trying to drum up sympathy for the illegals, you are talking about 20+ million criminals. Every single one of them is a criminal.

Look at Salem Oregon for gods sake. We have some family that bought a house years ago off of Lancaster. They are scrambling to get the **** out of there because the Mexican gangs are terrorizing them. Their 12 year old daughter had a gun held to her head by a non english speaking mexican gang member two weeks ago when she was coming home from school. I could fill up pages on just the crap that has happened just to them.

Here is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. Do we in the US make it a policy to reward criminal behavior? Millions around the world want to come here legally and become Americans. They go through the proper channels and pay their dues to come here as my dad's family did generations ago. It takes time and hard work for them to get here. Now you have another group that says to **** with the law and breaks through the border, get's false identification, many steal id's, and engage in illicit activities such as drugs and gangs. So does it make sense that we as a country would reward the criminals by just giving them citizenship while we tell the other people that they have to go by the book and the track to citizenship is going to slow a bit more because our quota has been filled by the illegals. I say that is b.s. We need to round the illegals up and ship them out of here. No tolerance.

You ask what how we deal with the children of the illegals that are left behind that act out in negative ways. My concern is more how do we deal with the children who have lost their parent because they were killed by a illegal? Ask yourself if you would be taking the same position you are if your dad, wife, or child had been a victim of a illegal.

By the way several of you have thrown out the race card very "liberally". Play on words intended. There was a comment about what are the dangers to society other than more brown voters or something like that. My dad's family were immigrants from Ireland that LEGALLY came into this counrty generations ago. My moms family were of native american origin. My problem isn't with "brown people" since I am partially one myself, it is with criminals.

 

[bugeye]

How can we ever hope to enforce things like theft, drunk driving or rape? What arrangements have to be made? How will the rest of the world view us if we enforce laws against bank robbery, molestation, drug dealing etc... ?

I mean, Is there even any financial incentive to enforcing laws?



"What you mean we pale face?" I'm not confused, I think you need to stop trying to include others in your examples, you don't speak for we!

Aparently there is a financial incentive to enforcing laws, and that is why we haven't enforced these laws for decades, yes? Then there is the concept of a statute of limitations.

The record of what has been discussed in this thread is clear, none of you have actually discussed the magnitude of this problem, glad your not confused I guess your just keeping the details to yourself, yeah sure!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Good news for AZ, bad news for mexifornia.. illegals are fleeing AZ in droves!

<broken link removed>

 

[Riot]

You should think through the "terms" used in your oppositional arguments. It's BS to use those particular terms, and is an INSULT to all the vicitms of the Nazis... back then when the Gestopo asked a Jew or other "undesireable" for their papers it often meant a trip to a concentration camp, here it would mean a trip back to their home country because they are not here LEGALLY in the first place. Something MUST be done about stopping the crimes perpetrated by illegals (like kicking their arses out of here) before we BECOME a police state using "other remedies"... like a National ID card with your BIO-info on it... like the Democrats are proposing RIGHT NOW!

It's an anology, get over it. Even the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (click) use the Gestapo anology to present the case against anti-gun laws. To forget what happened during the Holocaust is more of an "insult" to those that have died than to use what happened to them as a reference. They had their rights stripped from them one by one in the name of the "greater good". Before they knew it, they were loaded onto trains and executed by the MILLIONS.

Each law that bends or breaks the intent of the Constitution (no matter what the reason) is wrong.

You would all be singing a different tune if this law stated "gun owners" instead of "illegals". Imagine being pulled over, detained and arrested without a warrent on the "suspicion" of committing a crime...but being soely targetted because you owner firearms. Having proable cause opens the door to being searched, not thrown in jail. This law would be PERFECTLY FINE in my book if Arizona would simply just get rid of the whole "arrest without warrant" crap.

If an LEO pulls you over for speeding and finds out your an illegal, that's a completely different matter- you did something that warrented a stop in the first place and thus need to be identified by LEO. But to be pulled over under "suspicion" of doing something wrong? "Suspicion" of being an illegal?

Yeah, you guys are hypocrites.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Just how does this new law "break the intent of the Constitution"?

I believe the Founders would be 100&#37; for this law if they saw the carnage that illegals bring, today

In addition you are seriously misrepresenting this law.. what it allows and what it prohibits

 

[bugeye]

....
Here is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. Do we in the US make it a policy to reward criminal behavior?

..... So does it make sense that we as a country would reward the criminals by just giving them citizenship while we tell the other people that they have to go by the book and the track to citizenship is going to slow a bit more because our quota has been filled by the illegals. I say that is b.s. We need to round the illegals up and ship them out of here. No tolerance.

You ask what how we deal with the children of the illegals that are left behind that act out in negative ways. My concern is more how do we deal with the children who have lost their parent because they were killed by a illegal? Ask yourself if you would be taking the same position you are if your dad, wife, or child had been a victim of a illegal.

By the way several of you have thrown out the race card very "liberally". Play on words intended. There was a comment about what are the dangers to society other than more brown voters or something like that. My dad's family were immigrants from Ireland that LEGALLY came into this counrty generations ago. My moms family were of native american origin. My problem isn't with "brown people" since I am partially one myself, it is with criminals.

You raise some good points but until we are actually using real numbers based on real facts and put a dollar value on these things it is just a list. What I'm saying is that we don't know the real dollar value of our actions. For example, if we end up with 10 million abandoned children the state will end up paying at least a thousand dollars a month for each of them, that's 10 billion a month, 120 billion a year, without consideration of infrastructure required to take care of them.

You use an example of someone being killed by an illegal but do we know that illegals are more likely to kill than anyone else?

I haven't thrown out the race card, but, of course, it is a factor, are we so PC we can't consider it?

And what punishments are we going to give to the business that employed these people and enabled their long stay here? I mean if we are that down with the law being enforced then I expect to see heads of fthe processing industry serving hard time, right?

This case is not just a matter of the law it is a matter of laws that haven't been enforced for decades, and that makes all the difference. Bills to deal with these issues have managed to get nowhere slowly in DC. When dealing with a law that hasn't been enforced at some point it becomes more harmful to start enforcing it then to reset and restart the system.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Fact,. we are already paying for illegal aliens children via welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing and free medical care

Fact, illegal aliens comprise a hugely disproportionate percentage of prison inmates and crime

<broken link removed>

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces.

 

[Riot]

And what punishments are we going to give to the business that employed these people and enabled their long stay here?

Fine them $1,000 per employee for every year they've been employeed if the employeer hasn't made a reasonable effort to obtian their legal status (i.e. have on file a copy of their Government issued photo identification).

 

[Trlsmn]

Fine them $1,000 per employee for every year they've been employeed if the employeer hasn't made a reasonable effort to obtian their legal status (i.e. have on file a copy of their Government issued photo identification).

I'm all for harsh sanctions against employers of illegals! As for what the punishment should be? for one they should be under scrutiny of the IRS as they surely had to violate tax laws as illegal workers are not able to pay taxes. Two the employer should have to pay the difference to the state in what they saved by hiring and illegal. Three, there should be criminal penalties that include jail time.

 

[bugeye]

Fact,. we are already paying for illegal aliens children via welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing and free medical care

Fact, illegal aliens comprise a hugely disproportionate percentage of prison inmates and crime

<broken link removed>

We are also supply them with education and they are citizens. However, I suspect the costs will be much higher if the state has to raise them. I've looked for any good current figures on the actual costs associated with our ilegals and can't find much. Lots of crazy claims from the right based on studies done by the right, lots of claims by immigrant rights groups that are equally bs. My point here is that we really don't even know how many illegals there are, how many citizen children they have, how many non citizen children they have, and what they are costing us vs. what they are contributing.

The number of illegals in the penal system is no surprise, some of them are in there only for being illegal, some aren't talking at all so they don't know what to do with them, and in view of the few options they have to live here I'm sure crime is high on the list after all they don't ask for proof of citizenship, what am I saying, I bet even they ask for proof of citizenship.

 

[Father of four]

I do not agree that if someone came here ILLEGALLY and became pregnant and had a child here it would be a citizen. That is just not right. If someone has committed a crime it should trump any benefits that may come after! I think ALL of the people who came here illegally should be made to go back to Mexico or where ever they came from with their ILLEGAL children.

Them breaking our laws in the first place should mean EVERYTHING they have done after that is invalid! EVERYTHING that would have or could have benefited them! THEY KNEW that they were coming across our border and into our states ILLEGALLY in the first place. And that is exactly why their children should not be considered America children!!!!!!!!

If I broke the law...lets say I rob someone. And took that money and bought something. That something I bought should be sold and the money should go back to the rightful owner. Or that someone could have the right to keep what I had bought.

Or lets say I went onto a persons property illegally and set up camp. Then I built a house on that property. When the owner found out I was there, he/she has the right to make me leave and take my stuff with me. And if I couldn't take the house I built, tough! It would be the property owners. It was built there illegally in the first place! AND if my child was born there on that property ILLEGALLY it has not right to it, period!

And lastly. If I was the one who came across the border Illegally I should get what should be coming to them!

 

[2zuks]

You raise some good points but until we are actually using real numbers based on real facts and put a dollar value on these things it is just a list. What I'm saying is that we don't know the real dollar value of our actions. For example, if we end up with 10 million abandoned children the state will end up paying at least a thousand dollars a month for each of them, that's 10 billion a month, 120 billion a year, without consideration of infrastructure required to take care of them.

You use an example of someone being killed by an illegal but do we know that illegals are more likely to kill than anyone else?

I haven't thrown out the race card, but, of course, it is a factor, are we so PC we can't consider it?

And what punishments are we going to give to the business that employed these people and enabled their long stay here? I mean if we are that down with the law being enforced then I expect to see heads of fthe processing industry serving hard time, right?

This case is not just a matter of the law it is a matter of laws that haven't been enforced for decades, and that makes all the difference. Bills to deal with these issues have managed to get nowhere slowly in DC. When dealing with a law that hasn't been enforced at some point it becomes more harmful to start enforcing it then to reset and restart the system.

The problem with your 120 billion dollar a year cost estimate is that it doesn't take into consideration that we are already footing the bill for a large number of these people. What you just gave me is your own estimate for the welfare cost of illegal immigration. Of course not all of them are on welfare, housing, food stamps ect, but most are. Mexico gives their citizens literature promoting the welfare system in the US so they may come up and partake.

There have been studies done on crime rate of illegals, of course they are estimates because nobody knows how many illegals are actually here. When I started going to school, I was originally a criminal justice major. We did study the impact of illegals on the courts, prisons, as well as the social impact. It is significant. In my opinion one murder by an illegal is too many because they shouldn't be here to begin with. It is a unecessary death inflicted on a citizen of the US because the government isn't doing their job.

The race card is throw out as a tool to quite people much of the time. If a person doesn't like Obama's health care bill, it is of course because the person is a racist. If a person doesn't like illegal immigration it is because they don't like brown people. Admittedly there are people who are racist out there who are influenced greatly by their views. Some of the most racist people I have encountered are minorities, even though the only people who get labeled as racists are white. I myself can like someone from any race, and I can despise someone from any race. It depends on the person. The topic at hand however has nothing to do with race. I would be just as angry if we had a flood of white people coming in and wreaking havoc on our system.

I would love to see heads roll with the businesses and the politicians who have enabled the immigration problem. That is part of our problem. Bush never did anything about the illegal problem because he had pressure from oil companies and others who use illegal labor to realize a greater profit. Obama wants to legalize them because he sees a possible increase in his voting base, which he knows has significantly decreased. The problem is that both are examples are of the elite who are looking out for their best interests instead of ours. That is why our political system, both sides needs a enema.

Immigration has been enforced, just not anywhere close to the level it should be enforced.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

We are also supply them with education and they are citizens. However, I suspect the costs will be much higher if the state has to raise them. I've looked for any good current figures on the actual costs associated with our ilegals and can't find much. Lots of crazy claims from the right based on studies done by the right, lots of claims by immigrant rights groups that are equally bs. My point here is that we really don't even know how many illegals there are, how many citizen children they have, how many non citizen children they have, and what they are costing us vs. what they are contributing.

The number of illegals in the penal system is no surprise, some of them are in there only for being illegal, some aren't talking at all so they don't know what to do with them, and in view of the few options they have to live here I'm sure crime is high on the list after all they don't ask for proof of citizenship, what am I saying, I bet even they ask for proof of citizenship.

IMO they are not citizens. That is a misinterpretation of the 14th amendment

They are criminals. This is supposed to be a nation of laws. Nuff said

 

[deen_ad]

I would ad that those surplus military tents are the same ones we expect our young men stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan to live in!

that our best men are treated like the worst criminals and don't file complaints about to "harsh, unreasonable" treatment they receive. Sure hope Joe runs for president, I'll be he can prove that he's a US citizen too, unlike our Pres.

 

[Stomper]

It's an anology, get over it.

It isn't pink fluffy rabbits and little old white ladies in wheelchairs that are FLOODING accross the border ILLEGALLY, it's brown skined Latinos of every size and shape. If it were pink fluffy rabbits and/or little old white ladies in wheelchairs that were the VAST MAJORITY of offenders, I'd profile them too... you get over it.


... and for the record I'm ALL FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION, my FIRST wife was a Latino that I brought back from Honduras during my Army days (NOT an easy process.. the US and Honduran Governments, and the ARMY to deal with... she latter ran off with another dude when I was subsequently deployed overseas, again). Before I met my current wife, I had a Mexican-American girlfriend that was a 1st generation US citizen born of LEGAL immigrants... my CURRENT wife and three kids are Australian citizens that I brought over here, and let me tell you something... I had to PROVE with all sorts of documentation that I could financially support them BEFORE I could even start the immigration-visa process which costs rediculous sums of money... only to get treated VERY rudely by the embassy workers/processors of MY OWN COUNTRY that I served for 8-yrs. I have absolutely NO sympathy for illegal aliens (of ANY nationality) that get deported.

Furthermore, it's THE LAW that ALL resident aliens MUST carry their "green card" with them at ALL TIMES when out in public. If a resident alien gets poppped without it they'd better be able to get someone to bring it to the scene POST HASTE, and if they are ILLEGAL they won't have one anyway so its not too hard to figure your way through that process. With the passage of the "Real ID Act", all driver licenses are only SUPPOSED to be available to citizens and aliens who are here LEGALLY, so if they get pulled over for whatever reason and they have a license they are in the system and "good to go" (most of the time), if no license then one could probe deeper in the "legal status". It's NOT rocket science.

BTW- the analogy of "we'd be screaming if they profiled gun owners" is bogus as well... firstly owning arms is a RIGHT proclaimed/guaranteed by the Constitution... Immigration is NOT a right, it's a priveledge granted by PERMISSION.


PS- I have ALWAYS hated how American "justice" and "doing the right thing" are always driven by the financial "costs" these days... doing the RIGHT THING has never been easy... I mean seriously, "it's so old fashioned... NOBODY'S DOING IT THESE DAYS!"

 

[Riot]

I'm all for harsh sanctions against employers of illegals! As for what the punishment should be? for one they should be under scrutiny of the IRS as they surely had to violate tax laws as illegal workers are not able to pay taxes. Two the employer should have to pay the difference to the state in what they saved by hiring and illegal. Three, there should be criminal penalties that include jail time.

But who goes to jail? The gal at HR that dropped the ball or the owner who trusted his supervisors to hire people based upon the laws? You should have to show INTENT to break the law to go to jail...incompetance should be fined.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

But who goes to jail? The gal at HR that dropped the ball or the owner who trusted his supervisors to hire people based upon the laws? You should have to show INTENT to break the law to go to jail...incompetance should be fined.

The cop who arrests you for possession of stolen property does not care about your "intent". Ignorance of the law is no excuse.. ever heard that?

 

[Stomper]

Crickets from the lefties around here... I hear CRICKETS!!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Crickets from the lefties around here... I hear CRICKETS!!

They'll be back with more pablum puking nonsense to muddy the waters

 

[bugeye]

They'll be back with more pablum puking nonsense to muddy the waters

I've said all I have to say on the subject!