Ammo gouging thread.

Messages
2,558
Reactions
6,235
Even in good times, commercial .38s were more expensive than 9s -- probably a volume-to-price (*) issue. Almost everyone has a 9mm, but fewer have .38s and it's easier to blow through a lot of 9mm compared to .38s so the volume for 9mms has always been greater than for .38s.

* economy of scale, that's the term I'm trying to find
It's funny because a couple generations ago the .38 Special was far and away the king of the range. It's nowhere near what it once was, but it was so prevalent at one time that there are still lots of them around. I think of this whenever I hear someone say that the .40 S&W is dying out and someday will be dead to where they won't make ammo for it. Not likely; it was just too prevalent, and will always be around to one degree or another.

I wouldn't have the slightest concern about primer availability if I hadn't got on a big .38 reloading kick a few months ago, and used up 5k SPPs. I had too much spare time at home "working from home" at the beginning of COVID, and decided it was a good time to tackle that 5 gallon bucket of .38 brass sitting in my garage. At least I have a five year supply of .38 Special ammo though. :)
 
Messages
6,660
Reactions
14,693
I find it interesting that this sort of thing we've been discussing here doesn't follow the textbook supply-and-demand model. If it did, the manufacturers, distributors, and big retailers like Bi-Mart would all raise their prices to whatever the market would bear.
The unseen market force here is the internet and the two ton gorilla, Amazon.
Brick and mortar retailers recognize the importance of good will and how it can affect their already thin margins.
Doing a Cheaper than Dirt would drive away many, good paying customers.

Corporate Gas outlets, on the other hand, do not have to worry about competition sources, and can raise the price on their product as it sits in their tanks in the ground. Fast to raise, slow to lower.
 
Messages
2,287
Reactions
3,701
Even in good times, commercial .38s were more expensive than 9s -- probably a volume-to-price (*) issue. Almost everyone has a 9mm, but fewer have .38s and it's easier to blow through a lot of 9mm compared to .38s so the volume for 9mms has always been greater than for .38s.

* economy of scale, that's the term I'm trying to find
I was going to say this too. And that goes for 9mm and 38Special having brass cases.

Cate
 
Messages
2,236
Reactions
2,990
1) "Reloaders are still for sale. You are paying for convenience when buying loaded ammo."
I just saw an article about a tsunami of new net searches for reloading related topics and kit.

2) "What if you're buying your first gun and can't find any ammo, I don't think that makes them a fool, just out of luck."
It makes them paying whatever a seller wants. Those who just woke up have a lot of ground make up.

3) "I was talking to a thirty something the other day and they just got their first pellet gun for home defense. They felt much safer with all the civil unrest and having that pellet rifle."
o_O Holy mackerel!! I hope you're talking about one of those new ones that actually has firearm level power. I shudder to think of what the truly desperate will do - regarding food, guns, or anything else.

4) "No. You'll be a felon and sent to the camps."
Better to perish in the Freiheitkampf than survive to see defeat. :s0035:

5) "That makes your EBR investment effectively worthless."
Not if you bought it as an investment in something a lot more important than money.

6) "It's soon we'll be saying, " One Million Dollars" for 9mm!"
Yeah, it'll be like Zimbabwe with banknote denominations in exponential notation. :eek:
 
Messages
411
Reactions
1,027
Every time I’m near a Bi-Mart, I stop in and see why they’ve got. Sometimes, I get lucky and walk away with some fresh ammo...

Kudo’s to Bi-Mart for essentially holding the price on ammo...
BI-MART ROCKS!

I've always made it a daily regular stop when I would visit my family- before Covid-19 and fixed elections- I would frequently stock up on ammo there, especially when Cabela's and Sportsman's Warehouse started raising their ammo prices. And now that greedy Kommiefornia gun stores are jacking their ammo prices up, it makes me happy I give my business to a Northwest retain chain instead of POS stores like Turner's Outdoorsman. JMO.
 
Messages
126
Reactions
97
I guess folks aren't ticked at bimart anymore? I wonder what happened . Hopefully I made a gouger think twice before he goes on craigslist again to peddle gun ammo and rip people off. His plan of making up his gas $$ while still ripping me off ten fold were slowly dashed when he showed up at the clackamas fredmeyer yesterday, he came from from welches, with 5 bricks of 22lr and 500 rds of 9mm. Asking price, 1k$. I even drove the old ladys car over and parked accross the street at Wendy's to get a glimpse what this knucklehead looked like. Early 20's, driving a new Cummins 3,500 pffft..
The manner he smoked his 10 ciggs in the 20 minutes past our meeting time was a true indicator of my victory and his selfish willingness to be conned. Sending him straight to voice-mail 20 times over was the capper.. Conning a con man, economics at its best.
Be careful if you try ripping people off. People like me are to get ya, legally of course
 

spider

Messages
1,667
Reactions
596
I guess folks aren't ticked at bimart anymore? I wonder what happened . Hopefully I made a gouger think twice before he goes on craigslist again to peddle gun ammo and rip people off. His plan of making up his gas $$ while still ripping me off ten fold were slowly dashed when he showed up at the clackamas fredmeyer yesterday, he came from from welches, with 5 bricks of 22lr and 500 rds of 9mm. Asking price, 1k$. I even drove the old ladys car over and parked accross the street at Wendy's to get a glimpse what this knucklehead looked like. Early 20's, driving a new Cummins 3,500 pffft..
The manner he smoked his 10 ciggs in the 20 minutes past our meeting time was a true indicator of my victory and his selfish willingness to be conned. Sending him straight to voice-mail 20 times over was the capper.. Conning a con man, economics at its best.
Be careful if you try ripping people off. People like me are to get ya, legally of course
Quality use of time
 

WillametteWill

Messages
902
Reactions
2,240
I'm finding some silver linings around and trying to focus on these. Surprisingly, there are still some sales for reloading components. Picked up some 44 Special brass $10 off yesterday. When Sportsman's has primers they are mostly about $24 per thousand (large pistol primers last week and they had others).

Many to most on this forum have been planning ahead based on past shortage experiences. Unfortunately most other gun owners are casual shooters who have found themselves short. Mix this will all the new gun owners and folks new to reloading and we have a perfect storm.
 

GWS

Messages
5,477
Reactions
20,400
I guess folks aren't ticked at bimart anymore? I wonder what happened . Hopefully I made a gouger think twice before he goes on craigslist again to peddle gun ammo and rip people off. His plan of making up his gas $$ while still ripping me off ten fold were slowly dashed when he showed up at the clackamas fredmeyer yesterday, he came from from welches, with 5 bricks of 22lr and 500 rds of 9mm. Asking price, 1k$. I even drove the old ladys car over and parked accross the street at Wendy's to get a glimpse what this knucklehead looked like. Early 20's, driving a new Cummins 3,500 pffft..
The manner he smoked his 10 ciggs in the 20 minutes past our meeting time was a true indicator of my victory and his selfish willingness to be conned. Sending him straight to voice-mail 20 times over was the capper.. Conning a con man, economics at its best.
Be careful if you try ripping people off. People like me are to get ya, legally of course
The Price Avenger!
Oh well, if you have that much time to waste...:s0092:
 
Messages
2,558
Reactions
6,235
I've been seeing 9mm ammo available a lot more lately; I picked up a couple boxes at Bi-Mart a few days ago, and just a little while ago stopped at Cascade Farm where they had a shelf full. Between my wife and I, we got 4 boxes at $12.79/box. As I mentioned before, I didn't buy it to resale for a profit, and I don't need it. I often have friends who ask me for ammo, so I'll pass this along to them, rather than my reloads.

Perhaps increased production is finally trickling down to retail here and there?
 

Mikej

Messages
11,275
Reactions
22,471
Here's an email I got from Powder Valley this morning.


21Oct
Why Is There a Primer Supply Shortage?
If you’ve tried to purchase ammo or reloading supplies lately, you’ve probably noticed a lot of products are out of stock. Of all the components needed to reload ammo, it seems primers are the toughest to find, prompting many reloaders to refer to the current crisis as “The Great Primer Shortage of 2020.” The primer supply shortage doesn’t just affect reloaders, though. It’s also limiting the production of many popular types of ammunition. This can be frustrating for shooters and hunters looking to keep their edge on the range, and can be concerning for preppers, survivalists, and others who are concerned about their safety.
We are in the midst of the greatest primer shortage of all time, and we don’t see things getting better anytime soon. Read on as the experts from Powder Valley delve deeper into the primer shortage of 2020.
A Massive Increase in Demand
Like any other product in a market economy, primers are subject to the whims of supply and demand. As far as demand is concerned, a perfect storm of factors has caused a run on the ammo market like we’ve never quite seen before. A mix of the Covid-19 pandemic, civil unrest, and the possibility of an anti-2nd amendment President and Senate has caused demand to skyrocket. The pandemic specifically has incentivized shooters to learn how to reload their own ammo.
We have an extremely large number of new reloaders who have entered the market. The NSSF estimates that first time gun owners has increased to 6.2 million people over the past few months. Unfortunately, many of those reloaders entered the market anticipating that it would be easier to make their own ammo since readily available ammunition was so difficult to find. With shortages of bullets, powder, brass and primers, that has simply not been the case
Since so many people have lost a chunk, or all of their income, it makes sense that reloading, which saves on the cost of ammo at the expense of time, would become more popular than ever. Even if you’re financially stable, reloading and shooting are great socially distant activities you can do while the movie theaters, bowling alleys, and bars are shut down. With little answers on the virus, it’s hard to see when these closures and limitations will end. This is why we believe this could end up being the greatest primer shortage of all time.
Hoarding
When there is a primer shortage the first thing people normally point to is consumer hoarding. We believe this is having an impact on availability, but probably not to the extreme that many think. There are definitely some profiteers who buy primers and then sell them on auction sites or other multi list sites. This is why many online retailers have now chosen to limit the purchase quantities to an extreme low level in an effort to reduce this.
Disruptions in the Supply Chain
Demand, however, is just one part of the story. Disruptions in the supply chain have also made a big impact on the availability of primers. When it comes to ammunition supplies, bullets are easy to manufacture, brass can be re-used, and powder is generally stockpiled by companies (though perhaps not the kind you’re looking for). This leaves primers, which are relatively difficult to make, as the component that causes the bulk of ammo shortages.
In the U.S., only four companies (Winchester, Remington, Federal, and CCI) manufacture primers for civilian use, law enforcement, and the military. Even under perfect circumstances, there’s only so much they can produce at once, and needless to say, circumstances have not been perfect during the pandemic. People getting sick, missing work to take care of their kids, and self-quarantining – from factory workers to delivery drivers, and all throughout the supply chain – caused a lull in manufacturing this spring.
The Remington bankruptcy has had a large impact on the shortage of ammo and primers. With Remington in a state of financial insolvency for the past two years, suppliers were demanding payment upon delivery for products. Remington simply did not have the financial capabilities to have an abundance of raw materials on hand and had to shutter some of their production capacity. Barnes bullets and primers were hit particularly hard in the reloading market. With the recent purchase of Remington by Vista, there is a good chance that Vista will be diverting CCI and Federal primers that would typically go to reloaders to Remington ammunition production. Remington primer production capacity has never been great. The hope would be that Vista will place more emphasis on getting the Remington primer production capacity increased substantially and quickly. The best news coming out of this is for Barnes fans. With Sierra’s purchase of Barnes we anticipate the availability of Barnes bullets to increase substantially in a very short period of time.
In 2008 we saw a huge influx of Russian primers. We are not seeing that this time as the Murom Apparatus Producing plant is only producing at partial capacity due to the COVID-19 restrictions. On top of that, there have been changes in upper management at Murom which have caused further disruptions. But, we are very hopeful that these changes will have a positive effect on production and distribution in the long run.
With import restrictions out of Russia, we do not anticipate seeing the help we had from them in 2008-2012. We had also seen S&B, Unis Ginex and other foreign brands of primers enter the market during the shortages to relieve some of the pressure, but aren’t seeing that influx of primers this time around. The lack of foreign primers on the market is a major reason we believe this shortage is going to last for quite some time. We may see some help from foreign primers, but we don’t anticipate the large volumes we’ve seen previously.
What Should You Do?
As an individual, as of right now, there’s little you can do in the face of the reloading equipment supplies shortage. Keep checking your trusted online distributor Powder Valley for new arrivals of primers from all four manufacturers.
We have created some very stringent limitations on the purchase of primers in an effort to help as many people as possible work through this extremely tough time. Normally, we would say “stock up.” But that time has passed, and I would encourage everyone to learn from this. Stock up in times of plentiful supply so that you are not affected as greatly during these times of extreme shortage.
In the meantime I would encourage everyone to pray for our country and our leaders as we navigate this perilous situation.

Something I noticed was a bunch of powder that has been available is now out of stock.
 

DizzyJ

Messages
3,964
Reactions
3,925
Here's an email I got from Powder Valley this morning.


21Oct
Why Is There a Primer Supply Shortage?
If you’ve tried to purchase ammo or reloading supplies lately, you’ve probably noticed a lot of products are out of stock. Of all the components needed to reload ammo, it seems primers are the toughest to find, prompting many reloaders to refer to the current crisis as “The Great Primer Shortage of 2020.” The primer supply shortage doesn’t just affect reloaders, though. It’s also limiting the production of many popular types of ammunition. This can be frustrating for shooters and hunters looking to keep their edge on the range, and can be concerning for preppers, survivalists, and others who are concerned about their safety.
We are in the midst of the greatest primer shortage of all time, and we don’t see things getting better anytime soon. Read on as the experts from Powder Valley delve deeper into the primer shortage of 2020.
A Massive Increase in Demand
Like any other product in a market economy, primers are subject to the whims of supply and demand. As far as demand is concerned, a perfect storm of factors has caused a run on the ammo market like we’ve never quite seen before. A mix of the Covid-19 pandemic, civil unrest, and the possibility of an anti-2nd amendment President and Senate has caused demand to skyrocket. The pandemic specifically has incentivized shooters to learn how to reload their own ammo.
We have an extremely large number of new reloaders who have entered the market. The NSSF estimates that first time gun owners has increased to 6.2 million people over the past few months. Unfortunately, many of those reloaders entered the market anticipating that it would be easier to make their own ammo since readily available ammunition was so difficult to find. With shortages of bullets, powder, brass and primers, that has simply not been the case
Since so many people have lost a chunk, or all of their income, it makes sense that reloading, which saves on the cost of ammo at the expense of time, would become more popular than ever. Even if you’re financially stable, reloading and shooting are great socially distant activities you can do while the movie theaters, bowling alleys, and bars are shut down. With little answers on the virus, it’s hard to see when these closures and limitations will end. This is why we believe this could end up being the greatest primer shortage of all time.
Hoarding
When there is a primer shortage the first thing people normally point to is consumer hoarding. We believe this is having an impact on availability, but probably not to the extreme that many think. There are definitely some profiteers who buy primers and then sell them on auction sites or other multi list sites. This is why many online retailers have now chosen to limit the purchase quantities to an extreme low level in an effort to reduce this.
Disruptions in the Supply Chain
Demand, however, is just one part of the story. Disruptions in the supply chain have also made a big impact on the availability of primers. When it comes to ammunition supplies, bullets are easy to manufacture, brass can be re-used, and powder is generally stockpiled by companies (though perhaps not the kind you’re looking for). This leaves primers, which are relatively difficult to make, as the component that causes the bulk of ammo shortages.
In the U.S., only four companies (Winchester, Remington, Federal, and CCI) manufacture primers for civilian use, law enforcement, and the military. Even under perfect circumstances, there’s only so much they can produce at once, and needless to say, circumstances have not been perfect during the pandemic. People getting sick, missing work to take care of their kids, and self-quarantining – from factory workers to delivery drivers, and all throughout the supply chain – caused a lull in manufacturing this spring.
The Remington bankruptcy has had a large impact on the shortage of ammo and primers. With Remington in a state of financial insolvency for the past two years, suppliers were demanding payment upon delivery for products. Remington simply did not have the financial capabilities to have an abundance of raw materials on hand and had to shutter some of their production capacity. Barnes bullets and primers were hit particularly hard in the reloading market. With the recent purchase of Remington by Vista, there is a good chance that Vista will be diverting CCI and Federal primers that would typically go to reloaders to Remington ammunition production. Remington primer production capacity has never been great. The hope would be that Vista will place more emphasis on getting the Remington primer production capacity increased substantially and quickly. The best news coming out of this is for Barnes fans. With Sierra’s purchase of Barnes we anticipate the availability of Barnes bullets to increase substantially in a very short period of time.
In 2008 we saw a huge influx of Russian primers. We are not seeing that this time as the Murom Apparatus Producing plant is only producing at partial capacity due to the COVID-19 restrictions. On top of that, there have been changes in upper management at Murom which have caused further disruptions. But, we are very hopeful that these changes will have a positive effect on production and distribution in the long run.
With import restrictions out of Russia, we do not anticipate seeing the help we had from them in 2008-2012. We had also seen S&B, Unis Ginex and other foreign brands of primers enter the market during the shortages to relieve some of the pressure, but aren’t seeing that influx of primers this time around. The lack of foreign primers on the market is a major reason we believe this shortage is going to last for quite some time. We may see some help from foreign primers, but we don’t anticipate the large volumes we’ve seen previously.
What Should You Do?
As an individual, as of right now, there’s little you can do in the face of the reloading equipment supplies shortage. Keep checking your trusted online distributor Powder Valley for new arrivals of primers from all four manufacturers.
We have created some very stringent limitations on the purchase of primers in an effort to help as many people as possible work through this extremely tough time. Normally, we would say “stock up.” But that time has passed, and I would encourage everyone to learn from this. Stock up in times of plentiful supply so that you are not affected as greatly during these times of extreme shortage.
In the meantime I would encourage everyone to pray for our country and our leaders as we navigate this perilous situation.

Something I noticed was a bunch of powder that has been available is now out of stock.
Yeah. I posted this in the reloading section a couple days ago. Many factors coming into play.
 

UPCOMING EVENTS

Arms Collectors of SW Washington Gun Show
Battleground Community Center
912 E Main St, Battle Ground, WA 98604, USA
Rimfire Challenge Dec 12th @ DRRC
Douglas Ridge Rifle Club
27787 OR-224, Eagle Creek, OR 97022, USA
Albany Rifle & Pistol Club (ARPC) Gun Show
Linn County Expo Center
3700 Knox Butte Rd E, Albany, OR 97322, USA

LATEST RESOURCE REVIEWS

  • Adaptive Firing Solutions
    5.00 star(s)
    Adaptive Firing Solutions. A+
    5 stars does not do Adaptive Firing Solutions justice. I have done business with him multiple times and wish I could give at least 12 stars...
  • Limitless America
    5.00 star(s)
    Awesome shop
    Love this shop. Purchased a few items from them. Always have a lot of parts in stock without much markup. Purchased two cans this summer from them...
  • Gator's Custom Guns
    5.00 star(s)
    Great, old school gun shop
    The store is a treasure trove I have found magazines for H&K, Ruger and M1A's and at great prices. The staff is knowledgeable and friendly and...
    • GWS
  • HighLine Firearms
    4.00 star(s)
    great place
    nice guy, local
  • Sportsman's Warehouse - Albany
    5.00 star(s)
    Good products at good prices with friendly and knowledgeable staff!
    We like to visit the Albany location as it's closer but have been to several others and they have all been great!:D
Top Bottom