AMERICA'S RIDICULOUS MURDER RATES.

[1stklass]

Can anyone tell me what the USA murder rate would be if we took out drug related murders and gang related murders?

Why would i ask this? First of all, drug related murders would be committed by someone ALREADY COMMITTING A FELONY by trafficking or using drugs.

2nd. Gangs do just about nothing legally, so therefore they are probably committing a crime also when they decide to shoot someone.

These are the people that would DEFINITELY NOT COMPLY with ANY gun laws. These are murders that are going to happen regardless. So punishing law abiding citizens for something that wont stop anyways is kinda stupid.

We should also remove deaths by police in the line of duty if those are included, and any legal justifiable shooting. Although i might be wrong, I'm sure these are both included in the numbers the gungrabbers are quoting because they want as many people dead by guns as possible to promote disarming everyone.

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[mud]

almost all gun deaths are 1 committed by a criminal 2 committed by a leo or 3 committed by a gun owner against a criminal.Very few are accidental shootings or law abiding gun owner randomly shooting people. Don't know the numbers but if any one does I'd love to hear em.

 

[HahnsXD]

I would venture a guess that ~70% of gun murders are criminal on criminal activity.

 

[CascadeSam]

I believe about 50%+ of gun death are suicides though that percentage is ignored when the gun-grabbers want to emphasize deaths by guns. Gun-less Japan has a suicide rate far above ours so hypothetically keeping guns away from those who intend to kill themselves won't change the suicide numbers. 85% of men in prison for a second violent offense grew up in homes without a father in their lives. Boys (and men) who have grown up without a father have a higher tendency to drop out of school, join gangs and commit crimes, and commit suicide. One in six adult male suicides occur during the divorce process with how men get treated by the Family and Criminal Courts which are generally biased in favor of women and against men when it comes to he said she said issues.

 

[CascadeSam]

I believe about 50%+ of gun death are suicides though that percentage is ignored when the gun-grabbers want to emphasize criminal deaths by guns. Gun-less Japan has a suicide rate far above ours so hypothetically keeping guns away from those who intend to kill themselves won't change the suicide numbers. 85% of men in prison for a second violent offense grew up in homes without a father in their lives. Boys (and men) who have grown up without a father have a higher tendency to drop out of school, join gangs and commit crimes, and commit suicide. One in six adult male suicides occur during the divorce process with how men get treated by the Family and Criminal Courts which are generally biased in favor of women and against men when it comes to he said she said issues.

 

[Heidland]

Can anyone tell me what the USA murder rate would be if we took out drug related murders and gang related murders?

I can't for the entire country, but I can for Washington State. The Washington Association of Sheriff's and Police Chiefs has detailed statistics going all the way back to 1980; it really depends on the year, but Gang/Drug firearm murders only account for about 10% of the total firearm murders in our state on average. The only real caveat to that was in the late 80s when it jumped to about 60% of total firearm murders.

If you visit the third link below and download the 2011_CIW report you'll see that Gang/Drug murders (22) only account for 13% of the 159 total murders in the state. If you dig into the actual data that number drops to 11 (14%) of the total 78 Firearm Murders (All types) for 2011. A bit higher than the previous years, but not grossly so.

Here is an infograph i put together on just our State Homicide Statistics: Infographic: Homicide Statistics | infogr.am

Here is Violent Crime vs. CPL holders and DUI vs. Homicide with Firearm: Infographic: Washington State Firearm Statistics | infogr.am

And here is a direct link to the Washington Association of Sheriff's and Police Chiefs crime stats: Crime Statistics

I believe about 50%+ of gun death are suicides though that percentage is ignored when the gun-grabbers want to emphasize criminal deaths by guns. Gun-less Japan has a suicide rate far above ours so hypothetically keeping guns away from those who intend to kill themselves won't change the suicide numbers. 85% of men in prison for a second violent offense grew up in homes without a father in their lives. Boys (and men) who have grown up without a father have a higher tendency to drop out of school, join gangs and commit crimes, and commit suicide. One in six adult male suicides occur during the divorce process with how men get treated by the Family and Criminal Courts which are generally biased in favor of women and against men when it comes to he said she said issues.

It's actually a fraction lower than that CascadeSam, at least in our state. According to the Washington Department of Health in 2011 there were 464 suicides using firearms. While that is about six times higher than the total number of 78 firearm murders for the same year, it's only 49% of the total suicides for that year. As an interesting aside, the second most used method of suicide in our state is Poison at 34%.

 

[mckenzb]

Damn Heidland, where were you in all my team projects in college. You can flat out "get it done."


+1 Heidland

 

[97321]

Heidland. You, sir, are a steeley-eyed missile man.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

And how many head on and single car automobile wrecks are suicides? I guess more than anyone would care to admit. If you are going to commit suicide, don't involve innocent victims. Just the devils advocate here. Guns are not the only killer if you think that way.

 

[Misterbill]

The problem with the question you're posing is that we don't track murders in the way you're getting at.

Drug-related or gang-related is a highly subjective call. A lot of drug-related murders aren't going to be classified that way because there isn't any direct evidence to call it that. Same goes for gang-related murders.

What I wish the FBI did was better track murders by previous offender status as to victim and perpetrator. They don't. Another issue is that circumstances in over 1/3 of all murders are classified by the FBI as unknown.

the dirty secret that no one wants to talk about is that out of 12,600 odd murders in 2011, 5,416 of the victims were black males, virtually all killed by other black males. That's damn near 50% of all the murder victims and perpetrators confined to only about 7% of the population. (Black males).

You can blame the dug war for most of that IMO, and a total breakdown of family and community among urban black families for the rest of the disproportionate part of it.

Quite literally, if you just had blacks killing each other at the same rates as other races in this country, you'd be taking us down to a murder rate that's comparable to western Europe (though still higher, it wouldn't be 4+ TIMES higher).

but dealing with the fact that we have a permanent underclass that's being systematically destroyed by a failed war on drugs, lousy schools, retched urban policies and a welfare system that makes poverty in the long term WORSE instead of better would be really hard. It would take being politically incorrect. It would cost a lot of money to fix and take a long time.

And besides, who in power really gives a rip about poor black kids in Detroit or Compton or Memphis? As in actually cares enough to say tough things? Like admitting to well-known facts? Or devoting real money to FIXING the problem instead of putting a band-aid on a severed artery?

So what do they do instead? Blame guns.

Guns are racist. -they kill blacks at astonishingly disproportionate rates.

 

[Heidland]

Drug-related or gang-related is a highly subjective call. A lot of drug-related murders aren't going to be classified that way because there isn't any direct evidence to call it that. Same goes for gang-related murders.

The WA Assoc. of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs track that pretty well. They update previous years statistics based on the outcome of those related criminal cases, so they have a pretty base of drug/gang stats in conjunction with firearms usage.

 

[Misterbill]

The WA Assoc. of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs track that pretty well. They update previous years statistics based on the outcome of those related criminal cases, so they have a pretty base of drug/gang stats in conjunction with firearms usage.

The problem is the large number of unknowns. And while the WA numbers may be tracked better, nationally they are not. And in the large urban centers, the rate of unsolved homicides is huge.

 

[hermannr]

The WA Assoc. of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs track that pretty well. They update previous years statistics based on the outcome of those related criminal cases, so they have a pretty base of drug/gang stats in conjunction with firearms usage.

The FBI stats I saw said that gang related crime (not just homicides or firearm related) range from 40 to 90!% in some local areas.

 

[Bigfoot]

The problem with the question you're posing is that we don't track murders in the way you're getting at.

Drug-related or gang-related is a highly subjective call. A lot of drug-related murders aren't going to be classified that way because there isn't any direct evidence to call it that. Same goes for gang-related murders.

What I wish the FBI did was better track murders by previous offender status as to victim and perpetrator. They don't. Another issue is that circumstances in over 1/3 of all murders are classified by the FBI as unknown.

the dirty secret that no one wants to talk about is that out of 12,600 odd murders in 2011, 5,416 of the victims were black males, virtually all killed by other black males. That's damn near 50% of all the murder victims and perpetrators confined to only about 7% of the population. (Black males).

You can blame the dug war for most of that IMO, and a total breakdown of family and community among urban black families for the rest of the disproportionate part of it.

Quite literally, if you just had blacks killing each other at the same rates as other races in this country, you'd be taking us down to a murder rate that's comparable to western Europe (though still higher, it wouldn't be 4+ TIMES higher).

but dealing with the fact that we have a permanent underclass that's being systematically destroyed by a failed war on drugs, lousy schools, retched urban policies and a welfare system that makes poverty in the long term WORSE instead of better would be really hard. It would take being politically incorrect. It would cost a lot of money to fix and take a long time.

And besides, who in power really gives a rip about poor black kids in Detroit or Compton or Memphis? As in actually cares enough to say tough things? Like admitting to well-known facts? Or devoting real money to FIXING the problem instead of putting a band-aid on a severed artery?

So what do they do instead? Blame guns.

Guns are racist. -they kill blacks at astonishingly disproportionate rates.

A whole lot of tragic honesty in that post. Kudos.

 

[1stklass]

I should have phrased that better... While we have a high amount of murders we also have a huge HUGE population in the US. So by percentages we are not doing to bad. Human nature is human nature, some people are going to want to or have a reason(probably not a good one) to kill someone. Not having a gun isnt going to stop them. I was trying to get to the point that there are certain groups of people (gangs, parolee's, drug dealers, repeat offenders) that if handled the way they should be (locked up and the key tossed) we wouldnt have nearly the problem everyone is making it out to be

 

[richardlpalmer]

Pft, I don't even mind if we have a higher rate of gun deaths than other countries. We're a country that was built on gun culture. That's part of our make-up. It's what we're kind of known for. And that culture is what brought us freedom. And that's the freedom so many people want in other countries. And lets not forget, despite all of the negatives spewed about "gun toting 'Mericans", there's hardly a country out there that wouldn't come looking to us for protection or help when it comes to war. Yeah, call us bullies and uncooth, etc. but when push comes to shove, who does the world depend on to clean up the messes?

Reminds me of this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo

 

[chemist]

Misterbill is absolutely right, in that the biggest predictor of violent crime isn't the number of guns, but the number of males of color in a neighborhood. It's a difficult thing to say and I'm not implying causality in either direction, but something has gone catastrophically wrong with the black/brown culture in the US.

Major Findings of The Color of Crime -- Second, Expanded Edition (2005)

The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.

 

[Heidland]

Pft, I don't even mind if we have a higher rate of gun deaths than other countries.

Firearms attributed Deaths and Firearms attributed Murders are two wholly different things; you need to be able to clearly and concisely differentiate between the two, especially during any discussion with an anti-gun person.

Firearms attributed Murders are only those deaths attributed to Homicide by Firearm (all types: hangun, rifle, shotgun, and unknown type)

Firearms attributed Deaths include all deaths attributed to accident, the above Firearms attributed Murders, and suicide. Hence, Firearm Deaths is always significantly higher (and the stat that anti-gun advocates chirp on about).

Don't fall into that trap. As soon as you hear "Firearm Deaths" get the speaker to clarify what they mean, then bring the conversation back to Firearm Murders, which are significantly less, on the order of about 75%.

 

[meener777]

Misterbill is absolutely right, in that the biggest predictor of violent crime isn't the number of guns, but the number of males of color in a neighborhood. It's a difficult thing to say and I'm not implying causality in either direction, but something has gone catastrophically wrong with the black/brown culture in the US.

Major Findings of The Color of Crime -- Second, Expanded Edition (2005)

That's not quite right. The vast majority of homicides are white on white and black on black, with whites taking the lead in 2011.

FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

 

[meener777]

I love the FBI UCR stats. Here is an argument that I like for why we need 30-round magazines:

Out of all the homicides where the number of perpetrators was known in 2011 (8696), nearly 18% involved multiple attackers.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 4