Am I the only one who thinks that flashlights on weapons are counterproductive?

[Doc wind]

on a home defense shotgun maybe not a bad idea. I let you know after someone tests the theory.

 

[lucusloc]

on a home defense shotgun maybe not a bad idea. I let you know after someone tests the theory.

Not sure what type of shotgun you have, but if it is a pump I would avoid the mounts that put rails on the pump grip. I find accessories slamming into your support hand under recoil to be rather unpleasant. Keep all your mount points forward of the foregrip for maximum comfort.

(YMMV of course, not everyone has the same length arms or same size hands. This is just something to be aware of.)

 

[CamoDeafie]

Sacrilege to put a rail mounted handgun light onto a rail on a carbine?

P&S Foregrip / CQB Rail Adapter Combo Kit

A one-stop shop for all of your gun parts, mil-surplus and tactical gear needs.

wetworxoutfitters.com

Interesting that the rail attachment for M4 handguards and similar have USGI contracts and NSN. @lucusloc , I know not quite what you were looking for re the holes in handguards but there we go.

 

[lucusloc]

Sacrilege to put a rail mounted handgun light onto a rail on a carbine?

P&S Foregrip / CQB Rail Adapter Combo Kit

A one-stop shop for all of your gun parts, mil-surplus and tactical gear needs.

wetworxoutfitters.com

Interesting that the rail attachment for M4 handguards and similar have USGI contracts and NSN. @lucusloc , I know not quite what you were looking for re the holes in handguards but there we go.

That looks like one of the modern rail adapters you can find basically everywhere nowadays. They fit most guns that have the "standard" vent holes, not just A2 pattern stuff. I linked a few other examples in prior posts.

I was specifically trying to find the original document from the 80s(?) before pic rail adapters became the default solution. I remember there being at least a direct mount VFG for the vent holes as well as a light, no pic rail adapter needed. Though after going back to track it down I am a bit unsure how widespread this system actually was or if it had any kind of official (even if limited) adoption. It is possible that document may have even been a prototype proposal from KAC themselves, but I would need to find the document again to even begin verification of that.

Either way it looks like it was quickly supplanted by the pic rail adapters for official mil use, including contracts for production as you noted. The only documentation that is widely available (SOPMOD, RIS/RAS etc.) show that the pic rail version was the only version that had any kind of staying power (or is even widely remembered). The documentation for those is for right after when I think the original document I remember was dated. It will probably remain a mystery until someone stumbles on the original link and shares it here. I should probably go put an asterisks on my original post; "*information pulled from the dusty cobwebs and fever dreams of an old enthusiast. reference at your own risk."

But yeah, for people who just want to mount stuff today the rail adapter is the best (and only) solution that doesn't entail the wholesale replacement of the forend. There are probably dozens of versions out there, including original SOPMOD spec parts from KAC. As noted these adapters should fit standard vent holes from A2s, FALs, the KT RFB and maybe others. From what I remember the spacing should be somewhat standardized, at least for the holes that actually get used for mounting. Definitely double check before purchase though, because again, dusty cobwebs of my memory.

Pics gratis;

 

[CamoDeafie]

I'm seeing several posts of handgun lights used on quad rails and short rail lengths mounted on barrels and front sight bases and so on. So it doesn't seem like a bad idea overall to stick a compact weapon light that's usually seen on handguns, onto a short rail length. If I stick this rail on top of carbine clamshell, then I'd need an offset weapon light, or the mount itself and stick an old Streamlight TL-2 on there


Edit... Or I could go stupid and find an offset 15-20mm ring mount to stick my ancient as hell MiniMaglite I do need to double check it's body diameter

Edit. Looks like it's 18mm roughly. Or 0.709".

 

[lucusloc]

I'm seeing several posts of handgun lights used on quad rails and short rail lengths mounted on barrels and front sight bases and so on. So it doesn't seem like a bad idea overall to stick a compact weapon light that's usually seen on handguns, onto a short rail length. If I stick this rail on top of carbine clamshell, then I'd need an offset weapon light, or the mount itself and stick an old Streamlight TL-2 on there


Edit... Or I could go stupid and find an offset 15-20mm ring mount to stick my ancient as hell MiniMaglite I do need to double check it's body diameter

Edit. Looks like it's 18mm roughly. Or 0.709".

If you are talking about stuff you saw here a decent chunk of those are probably mine. I use hangun lights on short carbines on the regular, but I usually do get the remote tailcap upgrade, unless the pistol tailcap is right next to my hand (like on the AP5).

I only have one that I mounted the light over the top at the 12 o'clock, and I am not sure if I hate it or not. I have a tall optic on it, which does not bother me too much as it is a PCC, but I can still see a good chunk of the light body in my optic FOV in the bottom quarter. If I was setting this up on a longer range rifle it would be a solid "nope" but I cannot decide if it is ok on the shorter range firearm.

Honestly you could just go with a 45 pic adapter for a pistol light. That would let you mount it to the top rail, but keep it offset from even a short scope/sight mount.

Warne 45 Degree Offset Picatinny Side Mount Red Dot Adapter Aluminum

The Team Warne 45 degree offset rail mount fits to standard Picatinny-style rails. With the 45 degree mount you can easily attach a mini red dot,...

www.midwayusa.com

That is a super fancy/expensive one. You could probably find a solid one for $15 if you look. Plus if you do stick to the pistol tailcap that looks like it would be easier to reach with your thumb while keeping your steady hand in the firing position.

 

[CamoDeafie]

you are talking about stuff you saw here a decent chunk of those are probably mine. I use hangun lights on short carbines on the regular, but I usually do get the remote tailcap upgrade, unless the pistol tailcap is right next to my hand (like on the AP5).

Nah, like on M4 carbine forum, Reddit, and other forums, not on here mostly from Google searches

 

[lucusloc]

Nah, like on M4 carbine forum, Reddit, and other forums, not on here mostly from Google searches

Ah yes, well it is a good general fit. Short light on a short gun, and basically everyone makes remote tailcaps for them anyway. Honestly I don't really even think of them as pistol lights, I think of them as universal lights. The bigger lights are just long gun lights, because that is all they will fit on. A universal light only becomes a pistol light when you put on those little fingerbutton switches that poke around the trigger guard. Those are kinda awkward to use at the front of a long foregrip. You really just want a button tailcap for that.

 

[titsonritz]

Mossie Midnight 1913 FSB Mount

arisakadefense.com

Depending on the size of your light.

Lol dude, I'm gonna need to set up a video rig to see just how big the muzzle blast gets from my 12" 6.5 Grendel in low light situations, and then see if there's any physical way a WML won't get burned/melted by muzzle blast

The Mossie Midnight 1913 FSB Mount, for when you are OK with putting your light in harms way.

I may have to pick one of those up, I might have a build it would be useful on coming up.

Or when you've got a 16" carbine with carbine gas. Not sure how it'd do with Midlength gas or 20" A2/A4 setups with long lights. Short lights should be OK? Say, single CR123 size?

I've been using an original Mossie Midnight mount before Arisaka picked them up. They work perfectly as intended and excel with SF style pistol lights. They work fine on 14.5" and 16" mids, although I prefer them on carbine length systems.

 

[CamoDeafie]

See, I'm getting these things; two for my 16" M4rgery, (quad and vertical grip); the other for my 6.5 Grendel SBR (CQB rail adapter).



Depending on the rail placement for my SBR; I can do either of these for say, a Streamlight TL-2X LED or ProTac or similar light...

Or a light that has an offset mount already.


Offset, if top mount


Inline if bottom mount; I do already have two old Weaver 1" rings of similar looks/size


Edit. A short (AKA "pistol light") would go on either gun, SBR or M4rgery. More likely the SBR if bottom mount. We shall see when I get the things in place and then decide what I wanna buy later. I do have a fricking bright headlamp I can use

 

[lucusloc]

Time for some more pics;



This is three different configurations for WML setup.

The CMMG has a small light mounted as far forward as I can get it, with a remote switch mounted about as far back as I can get it. I like to tuck in with short PCCs as there is not a lot of recoil to deal with and a close grip right in front of the mag well is super fast for transitions with no discernable loss of control on follow up shots. This switch position lets me activate the light just by rolling my grip up the side of the gun. Ergonomically this is by far the best gun in this picture.

The AP5 does not use a remote switch, as the AFG puts the index finger of the support hand right behind the button. I can just roll my knuckle forward to activate the light, again without breaking grip at all. That light is not as far forwards as it could be, and the shadow is slightly worse because of that (especially with a suppressor) but it is not so bad that the shadow intrudes on the sight picture. I could not get this gun as comfortable with a remote switch, so a few slots back on the rail will have to do. The rubber cap over the switch plug was a casualty for this build, it got cut down to just a nubbin in order to mate with the AFG. Other than the slightly less than optimal shadow it is basically perfect.

The Stribog is the one I am still on the fence about. I really like the gun as a whole (10mm PCCs are fun basically no matter what), but I do not like basically the whole front end. It has a front trunnion thing that gets really warm right in front of the mag well (where I personally prefer to put my support hand), there is almost no room for a 6 o'clock mounted light even with a super far back grip and I do not have a PEQ style low profile light to mount to the top. Because of the heat sink right there the remote switch is not as comfortable to activate, and if I cannot figure out a way to cover that I may have to move the grip forwards and try a thumb activated switch instead. This gun is still a work in progress, but the 12 o'clock light does look super sophisticated, so it has that going for it.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@lucusloc , your thoughts on the Streamlight/Wilson Combat TRL-1 HPL thingy? I see one on eBay, and I see they're available new on Amazon, along with the more compact reflector headed TRL series.

What about TRL-3? Sub-$100 but Amazon says very often returned?

 

[lucusloc]

@lucusloc , your thoughts on the Streamlight/Wilson Combat TRL-1 HPL thingy? I see one on eBay, and I see they're available new on Amazon, along with the more compact reflector headed TRL series. View attachment 2032795

What about TRL-3? Sub-$100 but Amazon says very often returned?

My thoughts on the HPL is I am getting one of those today. The only thing I would be concerned with is if it physically fits, as that stonking great reflector can get in the way of a lot of stuff. You would have to be very careful of low bore axis pistols, and even rifles may not work at all, especially if a suppressor is fitted.

But if it does work on your firearm I expect it will be a great light. As I have said earlier there are two ways to measure the power output of a light; lumens, which measure the total output and candela, which measure the point intensity at the brightest spot. Both are important on a WML. The lumens roughly measure the ability to light up the space, especially when considering bounce light. Candela are important for dazzle. You can have a ton of lumens that light up an entire space brightly, but if the lens does not concentrate them enough you will not be able to blind someone in the center of the beam. The HPL looks like it take all 1000 of its available lumens and concentrates them into one narrow beam that you can use to cook retinas.

Other than the form factor this is an ideal usage for the available light in a WML. It's too bad physics says beam collation is directly related to optic size, as I would love a laser like beam out of a much smaller package like the regular TLRs

As for the TLR 3, I would not recommend it. I have never used one, but just looking at the specs I can say I am not surprised about the return rate. Aside from the polymer body, which I do not like but could work with for the price, the 170 available lumens is just not enough to really do a lot with. It is not a ton of light to do direct illumination with, let alone offer a ton of useful bounce lighting. And no matter how much you concentrate it with that tiny reflector you are going to struggle with any kind of blinding potential.

This is the type of light that "I will just shoot the light" is actually a valid rebuttal. 170 lumens is in the range achievable by incandescent flashlights. It is pretty pathetic. I consider ~400 lumens about the minimum for a viable WML, depending on beam (or more specifically max candela). You need to get up above 600ish lumens for beam concentration to not be a huge consideration, as that will have enough candela over a wide enough area in the center to effectively blind no matter what the beam geometry is. I typically want to see 10,000 candela (rated*) out of a light to consider it viable for defensive applications over decent distances. You can get away with far less if your distances are reduced, like in a small apartment, but 10,000ish is a good general rule of thumb

I am not going to do the actual math by my gut tells me you would not have a useful size beam if you tried to concentrate 170 lumens into 10,000 candela, to say nothing of how big an optics package you would need to do that.

*Holy hell we are not going down the rabbit hole of how these ratings are calculated or how manufacturers can fudge these numbers. Technically you only need a few thousand lux at the eyeball to cause effective blindness. This can correspond to candela as low as 1000ish, for short ranges. Lux is the measure of light on the area of a surface, and can be calculated from candela if you know the distance from the source and the distance the candela was benchmarked at. The surface we are considering here is the area of the pupil, you need enough light going in there to overwhelm the retina, which is why lux is the appropriate measure for that and not candela which is a point measurement. . . Yes, it is all very complicated with multiple units that all measure slightly different things. Needless to say while there are loose industry standards for how this is measured almost all manufactures fudge these numbers as much in their favor as possible (both lumens and candela), but candela are by far the easiest to fudge. Really there is no substitute for real world testing. Turn the light on and see if it blinds you at a useful distance. If it does the actual numbers are irrelevant and no one wants to deal with them anyway.

 

[sobo]

TL;DR

Next post, plz...

 

[lucusloc]

TL;DR

Next post, plz...

Shoot, I forgot the TL;DR for the ADDers around here.

TLR-1 HPL; probably a great light if it actually fits your gun. I am getting one for myself right now.

TLR-3; probably not a great light because there is not enough power to work with. Is cheap for a reason.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Well a light is going on my SBR or 16" carbines.... My handgun right now is a dinky SW40V which last I checked, requires its own thing or trigger guard clamped light?

Edit, yes it don't have an accessory rail at all.

 

[lucusloc]

Well a light is going on my SBR or 16" carbines.... My handgun right now is a dinky SW40V which last I checked, requires its own thing or trigger guard clamped light?

Edit, yes it don't have an accessory rail at all.

In general Streamlight is a great brand and I have a bunch of their stuff. Most of their current TLR -1s or -2s will be fine. If you are buying used check the listed output for that specific light, because a lot of their older stuff (And obviously their current budget stuff) is lower output than I like.

I am not sure the SW40V has any good light options. It seems that only the SW40VE has dedicated mount options, with those quasi rail cutouts on the frame. I am not sure if there are any lights bespoke to just the V, and I would be wary of any universal micro light that only had one clamp point on the trigger guard. I have never used them because I never had any confidence in their durability or quality. I am unaware that any major light brand makes a universal guard-only light, the only ones I have seen have been the direct-from-china budget brand options. And I have not even seen one of those for a while, so the fad may have died out entirely.

I am also less than a fan of most micro lights, as they typically are all low output compared to their pic mount brethren. Yes you can find micro lights that get up in the 400 lumen ranges or better, but they are the exception rather than the rule (for good reason, as heat management becomes an issue in that form factor).

Of course micro lights are still useful for ID when you have your pistol in your hand, and I would still recommend mounting one for that reason if you can, but I would not count on any of them for any kind of tactical advantage. They are strictly for illumination. If you want a light that has tactically useful amounts of output you are mostly stuck with the pic mounted options (or derivatives thereof, like the funny not-pic Glock rail). But now you would need to figure out how to get a rail onto the 40V. How easy is it to swap out the frame body?

 

[CamoDeafie]

In general Streamlight is a great brand and I have a bunch of their stuff. Most of their current TLR -1s or -2s will be fine. If you are buying used check the listed output for that specific light, because a lot of their older stuff (And obviously their current budget stuff) is lower output than I like.

I am not sure the SW40V has any good light options. It seems that only the SW40VE has dedicated mount options, with those quasi rail cutouts on the frame. I am not sure if there are any lights bespoke to just the V, and I would be wary of any universal micro light that only had one clamp point on the trigger guard. I have never used them because I never had any confidence in their durability or quality. I am unaware that any major light brand makes a universal guard-only light, the only ones I have seen have been the direct-from-china budget brand options. And I have not even seen one of those for a while, so the fad may have died out entirely.

I am also less than a fan of most micro lights, as they typically are all low output compared to their pic mount brethren. Yes you can find micro lights that get up in the 400 lumen ranges or better, but they are the exception rather than the rule (for good reason, as heat management becomes an issue in that form factor).

Of course micro lights are still useful for ID when you have your pistol in your hand, and I would still recommend mounting one for that reason if you can, but I would not count on any of them for any kind of tactical advantage. They are strictly for illumination. If you want a light that has tactically useful amounts of output you are mostly stuck with the pic mounted options (or derivatives thereof, like the funny not-pic Glock rail). But now you would need to figure out how to get a rail onto the 40V. How easy is it to swap out the frame body?

It's polymer. And a long discontinued model. I do think there were P80 frames that could be modified file side to fit SW40V parts and slides but considering HB2005; I'd be money ahead to just get a different handgun that actually can accept lights.

 

[lucusloc]

It's polymer. And a long discontinued model. I do think there were P80 frames that could be modified file side to fit SW40V parts and slides but considering HB2005; I'd be money ahead to just get a different handgun that actually can accept lights.

Yeah, finding something that has a pic rail would be the best option for lights. But those do have a tendency to be a bit bulkier than micro versions. I guess it really depends on what you want it for; deep concealment, easy carry or maximum eye burning. Compromises abound.

 

[bradsteen]

I guess it really depends on what you want it for; deep concealment, easy carry or maximum eye burning. Compromises abound.

I feel like the "maximum eye burning" category should be reserved for...