Am I missing an important step?

[daved20319]

Whoa, rough crowd! Sorry if I sounded snotty, guys, that wasn't my intent, I'm not a hunter so I don't think in terms of hunting accuracy, just making small holes in targets. Nor was I trying to dodge anything , so @tac , what does FIFY mean?

Yes, I have shot it at paper, but again, this is early days with this setup, I've got less than 200 rounds through it so far, and most of that was either getting acquainted with the cartridge or test loads. That said, I've shot a small number of test loads at 100 yards with 140 gr. ELD-M's, Varget and Superformance powder. The "Super" powder sucked, best group was just under an inch, the rest were 1.5 to almost 2 inches. Varget was much better, 5 different charge weights produced 4 groups under an inch, and 2 were under 1/2". Those were only 3 shot groups, and my increments were too big, same for the Superformance loads. The only take away was that this rifle liked that bullet at the velocity range of the Varget loads, unfortunately, I also didn't chrono them, I hadn't gotten my new Labradar yet. So I've redone the Varget test batch with finer increments and more loads at each, and will reshoot for both groups and velocity next time out.

Have also shot steel at 400 yards, 8" gong with Hornady Black 140 gr. ELD-M, thus the 140's above. Was my first time shooting at that long a range, took awhile to figure out my hold, but once I did, was able to make 3 consecutive hits on the target. Handed the rifle off to my shooting partner, told him my hold, and he did the same thing, so I don't think there's any question this thing can shoot . It'll be interesting to see how it does next time out, I finally put a bore scope through it after my last session, and discovered my own personal copper mine ! Took 2 cleaning sessions of a couple hours each to finally get it clean, then followed up with some JB Bore Compound to try and smooth it out a little. Factory Savage barrel, the bore was pretty rough, both visually with the bore scope, and I could also feel it running a patch through. I know, I probably shortened my barrel life, but like I said above, barrels aren't that expensive. My goal is to get involved in some F-class shooting, there's a "local" (90 miles away) range that does periodic comps as well as practice sessions. If I decide I enjoy it, I have no problem putting a better barrel on this thing, it's been my budget gun from the beginning. Started as a .223, Savage 12 FV, just swapped in a take-off barrel a short time back to test the waters with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Liking it so far, although it's right at the edge of my recoil tolerance, I'm a wimp in that department, which is why this thing weighs 14.5 lbs. .

Just getting started in the long range game, but I want to be able to shoot groups at range, not just bang steel, thus the interest in precision loading. And as I have more time to spend at the loading bench vs. actually shooting, I'm fine with adding extra steps to my process if it results in "better" ammo. Make more sense now, guys? Later.

Dave

 

[tac]

I was just checking if you had actually shot any of the ammunition over which you are taking so much care, as you don't mention that you had.

FIFY is shorthand for 'Fixed it for you'.

 

[Pizza Bob]

Isn't inside and/or outside neck turning a thing anymore?

 

[daved20319]

I was just checking if you had actually shot any of the ammunition over which you are taking so much care, as you don't mention that you had.

FIFY is shorthand for 'Fixed it for you'.

Oh, you were being rude, got it . Not to single you out specifically, but why do so many feel the need to go on the attack, after THEY'VE derailed a fairly straight forward post? I respond to an irrelevant question in a way the questioner (and others) don't like, and the next thing you know, my very existence as a shooter is being questioned. Not cool, guys, it's not like I'm exactly a newb to this forum. I contribute when I feel I have something to offer, and ask questions when I have them. What's wrong with actually answering the questions asked, or staying out of the conversation if you don't have anything useful to offer? Not trying to point fingers (much), I'm seeing this more and more across the gun forum spectrum. I avoid political posts like the plague they are, but this kind of thing is just as destructive, and really doesn't add anything to the conversations. Later.

Dave

 

[BigGame]

Ultimately, you'll need to experiment with what works for you and what makes a difference vs what doesn't make a difference.

I also follow many similar steps that you describe, such as expanding necks with a mandrel. I agree with DizzyJ that as you wade into precision stuff you should read about options, but test them yourself to see whether it makes a difference for you.

It sounds like you might benefit from a concentricity gauge. With it you can dissect each step of your process to shine light on what might be adding or removing runout. Ultimately, as you refine your process, you'll stop using it, but it's a nice tool while learning.

Also it was unclear to me whether you have a chronograph (you mention wanting a LabRadar). If you don't, it's a must-have for precision loading, in my opinion. The LabRadar is a step up and makes things easier.

Lubing necks, deburring flash holes, annealing... There are endless things you can try (neck turning, weighing brass and bullets, pointing bullets...). But whatever you do, test to see how much it really matters. You're beyond the point of simply adopting a method because someone else does it. Folks are successful with many different styles.

 

[tac]

I guess we are suffering here from a syntactical/language gap. I asked if you had actually shot any of the ammunition over which you were obviously taking an immense amount of care. It took you a long while to respond to what seems to me to be a simple and to some, the initial question.

I pointed out what I do on a 42-year-old single stage press, with a 36-year old rifle, shooting standard bullets made with ordinary dies that I got along with the press.
You ignored that.

However, if that could be construed as being rude, then you need to hang around a while, as there are people here who make me read like Mother Theresa. No names, but I'm sure you've already encountered them thus far.

As ever, the effective use of the ignore button can work to your advantage. I suggest, in the case of any future 'you and me posts' that it might be worth your while to apply it.

Have a great morning!

 

[ChuckNut Shawn]

I'm focusing more and more on precision loading for long range shooting with the 6.5 Creedmoor. My usual procedure is as follows:

Initial clean in walnut with a little Flitz and mineral spirits.
Decap.
Lube with Hornady One Shot per directions on can.
Full length resize.
Expand case mouths with a carbide mandrel die.
Trim, chamfer, de-burr, and clean primer pockets as needed.
A second clean in plain corn cob just to remove lube residue (I know Hornady says it's not needed, but I do it it anyway).
Then prime, charge, and seat bullets.

I don't do any other case prep after the second cleaning, no brushing or lubing of case necks, just seat bullets as the cases come out of the corn cob. So the question is, should I be brushing and/or lubing the case necks before seating bullets? And if I do add another step, what difference can I expect? Or to put it another way, what am I giving up by NOT doing it? Thanks.

Dave

Have you considered NOT doing a full length resize and simply using fire formed cases?

 

[thorborg]

At the risk of being chastised for subtracting, modifying or otherwise altering, but not adding to your treatise on missing steps, And, as long as your deprime is a separate step. Why aren't you deprimeing first? Much filth comes from the spent primer so decapping first will keep your clean media, much cleaner, less rinsing. I decap first, (and yes, a separate and unnecessary process) then wet clean with pins which will clean the pockets unlike cob or walnuts, usually no primer pocket attention is needed beyond inspection. I use Imperial dry lube on the expander ball but only every once in a while as my arm feels its needed. The last step, forgone by most, I do a walnut & rouge vibratory (tumble works too) which not only brings up a nice polish but removes most of any lube present during sizing if you are not using carbide.
As an aside, there is much to be said to @ChuckNut Shawn suggestion of neck sizing only of a fire formed round as a one bolt gun solution for premium consistency, I would take his suggestion seriously..

 

[RVTECH]

Late to the thread and did not read all posts but this part after you mention 'full length resize':

Expand case mouths with a carbide mandrel die.

By 'Expand' the case mouths do you mean flaring them? or expanding the entire neck ?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Oh, you were being rude, got it . Not to single you out specifically, but why do so many feel the need to go on the attack, after THEY'VE derailed a fairly straight forward post? I respond to an irrelevant question in a way the questioner (and others) don't like, and the next thing you know, my very existence as a shooter is being questioned. Not cool, guys, it's not like I'm exactly a newb to this forum. I contribute when I feel I have something to offer, and ask questions when I have them. What's wrong with actually answering the questions asked, or staying out of the conversation if you don't have anything useful to offer? Not trying to point fingers (much), I'm seeing this more and more across the gun forum spectrum. I avoid political posts like the plague they are, but this kind of thing is just as destructive, and really doesn't add anything to the conversations. Later.

Dave

"Straightforward" is operating from a baseline, not an unknown.

 

[DizzyJ]

Late to the thread and did not read all posts but this part after you mention 'full length resize':

By 'Expand' the case mouths do you mean flaring them? or expanding the entire neck ?

He's talking about ID sizing the case neck/mouth. Pulling an expander ball back up through the neck can cause bent necks and runout if not done correctly. Using a sizing mandrel can help to eliminate this error from happening.

I use carbide mandrels as they have less friction, and can use them without the need for lube when ID sizing the neck area.

 

[ma96782]

Then....you forgot (possibly) about uniforming the flash holes and checking/fixing the neck thickness and probably something else (i.e.spinning bullets/cartridges, etc...) that some benchrest shooter might say it absolutely necessary for accuracy. BUT.....whatever.

Because IMHO.....it's all up to you to decided if any procedure is worth the extra effort.

But then, I do lube the inside of the necks of my cases (though not every single one). I go by.....If I hear a squeek.....then, it's that time again.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ChuckNut Shawn]

Have you considered NOT doing a full length resize and simply using fire formed cases?

I've found my previous comment suggesting NOT to full length resize isn't a best practice (ref Erik cortina)…

 

[Steel Head]

I've found my previous comment suggesting NOT to full length resize isn't a best practice (ref Erik cortina)…

Where neck sizing excels is in being lazy

Run it through a Lee collet, prime, powder and seat bullet.

No tumbling
No lube

You can do this 1-5 times before a body die is needed depending on your circumstances.

I don't recommend for big magnums or if your running pretty sporty pressure's.

 

[Stomper]

This thread reminds me of why music bands always break up because hand reloading is (obviously) an art, and a bunch of artists in tight pants arguing and leaving the band over "creative differences"…. or banging another band member's girlfriend.

 

[daved20319]

This thread reminds me of why music bands always break up because hand reloading is (obviously) an art, and a bunch of artists in tight pants arguing and leaving the band over "creative differences"…. or banging another band member's girlfriend.

Now THAT's funny, @Stomper, I don't care who you are . Talk about necro-threads, in rereading this, it's pretty obvious I wasn't having a good day, my apologies to all for my nasty attitude in some of this.

Sometimes interesting reading old posts, though, been a lot of changes since this post. Still have the Creedmoor, but it now sports a 28" Criterion SS bull barrel and B&C stock. Got the Labradar, great piece of gear, I like and use it a lot. Got a FART and now wet tumble my brass. Other than that, my process is still pretty much the same as I described in my OP. Range time has continued being an issue, so I still don't have a great load for the Creedmoor yet, I keep messing with other (cheaper) bullets even though I know the 147 ELD-M should be my go to in this rifle, it consistently produces the best groups every time I use them. I think I need to focus more on secondary testing, i.e. seating depth after finding an otherwise good load. Best so far is still right around 1/2" at 100 yards, I think the rifle is capable of better, and I think I am, too, but as I already mentioned, range time is a challenge, and nothing beats actual trigger time.

BTW, there were a couple of comments on neck sizing only I didn't respond to. I've considered it, but it seems to me that you're just making ammo that will be different every time you shoot it. My goal is ammo that is as identical as possible, including a process that guarantees it won't be just seems counter productive to me. So I FL size exclusively. Just my opinion, but that's the reason for it. Anyway, thanks for the memories, @Stomper, and again, my apologies to all for being a dick. Later.

Dave

 

[Certaindeaf]

The most important step is stepping away from the crack keyboard.

 

[orygun]

Another plus for neck sizing. No stuck cases.

 

[daved20319]

Another plus for neck sizing. No stuck cases.

How so? Not challenging, just curious. Seems like the chance of a stuck case would increase, at some point. As I understand it, at some point in the neck size only regime, the case body will expand enough that extraction starts getting sticky, seems like a stuck case is only one firing away if not FL resized in time. Or were you referring to the reloading process? Knock on wood, so far I've never experienced a stuck case in a sizing die, and see no reason I should as long as I continue to be meticulous in my processing. One of the reasons I decap as a separate step is to keep the gunk out of my press, I use a different press or a hand tool for decapping. And I make a point of cleaning my dies periodically. Later.

Dave

 

[DizzyJ]

How so? Not challenging, just curious. Seems like the chance of a stuck case would increase, at some point. As I understand it, at some point in the neck size only regime, the case body will expand enough that extraction starts getting sticky, seems like a stuck case is only one firing away if not FL resized in time. Or were you referring to the reloading process? Knock on wood, so far I've never experienced a stuck case in a sizing die, and see no reason I should as long as I continue to be meticulous in my processing. One of the reasons I decap as a separate step is to keep the gunk out of my press, I use a different press or a hand tool for decapping. And I make a point of cleaning my dies periodically. Later.

Dave

He's talking about the case not getting stuck in the die.