Advice on Trading Legally

[whatzhizname]

Hey there,
I am planning to do a trade with a member here in the forum, but as he lives far away he is having a friend bring his item to meet with me to do the trade. I don't want to fall afoul of any laws (ie. "straw man" sales, etc.) so I wanted to make sure we do everything right. As long as neither he nor his friend are prohibited possessors that should be all right I would assume? Is there anything else we need to be aware of?

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[netcarrier]

What is the item being traded? If its a weapon does the friend have a FFL? If so for Which State? or States?
Tony Portland, Oregon Area

 

[Nwcid]

Straw only applies to FFL's.

Do you both live in the same state? If so then you are good to go assuming it is a legal firearm and you are a legal buyer.

Sections 1-3 apply the most, ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

I know I have both bought and sold guns and other items using a friend to pick up/drop off stuff.

 

[whatzhizname]

I am trading a firearm to him for a different firearm. Neither he nor his friend are "prohibited possessors" or anything like that and we are all residents of the same state (Oregon). Obviously if we could meet face to face it wouldn't be an issue but since his friend is traveling to my area it is the only way to connect. I just want to make sure we are abiding by the letter of the law in this day and age.

 

[Nwcid]

Yes you are good to go.

 

[Toxic6]

You learn something new every day......I didn't know straw only applied to ffl, guess I should have followed my own advice and read up on it lmao.

 

[Nwcid]

You learn something new every day......I didn't know straw only applied to ffl, guess I should have followed my own advice and read up on it lmao.

Cant be a straw by the ATF definition without filling out a 4473. Also Straw in this case has nothing to do with if a person can legally own a gun or not. If I am a legal buyer and you are a legal buyer and I am going to town. You give me $500 to pick up a gun while I am there. I fill out the paperwork and pay for the gun with your $500 that is a straw even though we are both legal. Now if I was in town, saw a gun I knew you wanted I paid for the gun and came home and gave it to you that is 100% legal.

The difference is question #1 on the 4473 which is "are you the actual buyer". In case #1 I am not the buyer, you are. In case #2 I am the buyer and you are just a lucky friend.

 

[Toxic6]

In case #2 I am the buyer and you are just a lucky friend.

Wish i had friends like that

but yeah, it makes sense. I just always though people were being fishy when they said they were going to have a "friend" meet me. Guess I didn't realize it wasn't that uncommon lol.

 

[Simonpie]

Now if I was in town, saw a gun I knew you wanted I paid for the gun and came home and gave it to you that is 100% legal.

That's an important distinction. There are a lot of guns bought as gifts in this world.

 

[Toxic6]

I know that if you tell them you are buying it as a gift some places won't do the sale (at least in Colorado lol). Big 5 told a friends wife she couldn't buy him a mosin for a christmas present and referenced the string buy thing. I think they still went back and he just paid for it - I would have went somewhere else personally just from the hassle.

 

[orygunmike]

Some further steps you may want to consider in your transaction. I take these steps whenever I do a face-to-face Intra-state sale.

For any firearm transaction


I require proof of Oregon residence by seeing the seller/buyer's drivers license. I write the DL number down on the Bill of Sale that will go in my safe.

I use a Bill of Sale that records the Buyer's/Seller's information, date of sale, and gun information. The BofS then goes into my safe

I personally know of someone who sold a gun to a private party and used a Bill of Sale to record the transaction. Three years later the BATF knocked on his door and inquired about the gun that he had sold, as it had been used in a crime. Because he was able to produce and show them the Bill of Sale, that included the guy's name and Drivers License information, he avoided further issues.[/LIST]

When purchasing a firearm:

I get the serial number of the gun I'm buying before I meet with the seller. I then call Washington County Sheriffs and tell them I am considering the purchase of a used gun from a private party, and ask them to run the gun through the system. This takes less than one minute. They will then tell me that "the gun has not been reported as stolen". I feel like I"ve done my due dilligence and I record that information on the Bill of Sale which will end up in my safe


I have yet to have anyone refuse to follow these requirements. If someone doesn't want to show me their drivers license or
give me the serial number before I meet them face-to-face ... I won't do business with them. There is no gun out there worth the risk of a felony that will follow me around the rest of my life and interfere with my ability to own firearms.

Hey there,
I am planning to do a trade with a member here in the forum, but as he lives far away he is having a friend bring his item to meet with me to do the trade. I don't want to fall afoul of any laws (ie. "straw man" sales, etc.) so I wanted to make sure we do everything right. As long as neither he nor his friend are prohibited possessors that should be all right I would assume? Is there anything else we need to be aware of?

 

[Redcap]

I am trading a firearm to him for a different firearm. Neither he nor his friend are "prohibited possessors" or anything like that and we are all residents of the same state (Oregon). Obviously if we could meet face to face it wouldn't be an issue but since his friend is traveling to my area it is the only way to connect. I just want to make sure we are abiding by the letter of the law in this day and age.

Trade items. Using the mutual friend is acceptable. Paperwork is unnecessary...in fact, the less paper trail, the better.

 

[raftman]

...

I personally know of someone who sold a gun to a private party and used a Bill of Sale to record the transaction. Three years later the BATF knocked on his door and inquired about the gun that he had sold, as it had been used in a crime. Because he was able to produce and show them the Bill of Sale, that included the guy's name and Drivers License information, he avoided further issues...

To be fair, you don't actually know that having the DL and name was the reason he avoided further issues. I am oversimplifying here but perhaps a "sorry, sold that gun years ago" would have done just as well.

 

[Redcap]

To be fair, you don't actually know that having the DL and name was the reason he avoided further issues. I am oversimplifying here but perhaps a "sorry, sold that gun years ago" would have done just as well.

I have actually been in that situation. "Nope, sold that a while back. Now leave and close the gate behind you." works pretty well for me.

 

[mjbskwim]

Golly,guess I have been lucky in the last 30+ years of buying and selling,that the ATF has never stopped at my door.I have never kept a bill of sale.
Maybe cause I move every 1-2 years?
Apparently I haven't sold to any killers or they just don't really care that much. How could they when the laws don't say we need a BOS for sales or trades?

 

[RL001]

Some further steps you may want to consider in your transaction. I take these steps whenever I do a face-to-face Intra-state sale.

For any firearm transaction


I require proof of Oregon residence by seeing the seller/buyer's drivers license. I write the DL number down on the Bill of Sale that will go in my safe.

I use a Bill of Sale that records the Buyer's/Seller's information, date of sale, and gun information. The BofS then goes into my safe

I personally know of someone who sold a gun to a private party and used a Bill of Sale to record the transaction. Three years later the BATF knocked on his door and inquired about the gun that he had sold, as it had been used in a crime. Because he was able to produce and show them the Bill of Sale, that included the guy's name and Drivers License information, he avoided further issues.[/LIST]

When purchasing a firearm:

I get the serial number of the gun I'm buying before I meet with the seller. I then call Washington County Sheriffs and tell them I am considering the purchase of a used gun from a private party, and ask them to run the gun through the system. This takes less than one minute. They will then tell me that "the gun has not been reported as stolen". I feel like I"ve done my due dilligence and I record that information on the Bill of Sale which will end up in my safe


I have yet to have anyone refuse to follow these requirements. If someone doesn't want to show me their drivers license or
give me the serial number before I meet them face-to-face ... I won't do business with them. There is no gun out there worth the risk of a felony that will follow me around the rest of my life and interfere with my ability to own firearms.

That is your choice to keep that record but it is not required. If ATF shows up it is because they have the weapon and have traced it back to you by the registration of firearms sold using the required ATF forms used during the sell. But that is another story and actually doesn't exist ( The registration part is my dry humor ). Yes, I think BG checks are a good thing but OR doesn't need fingers in the pot IMHO.

As for the sell, you would lose my business. I have no problem letting you see my DL and CHL to show that in fact, I am legal but you get no other info besides my name and phone # from when I call you about the purchase. Probably no big deal to you, no big deal to me either.

 

[deviousdevelopment]

Hate to bump a couple month old thread, but wouldn't it no longer be a FTF transaction if you're not meeting the buyer or seller? I only ask because I too have passed on deals where I couldn't meet face to face and didn't want to send a friend to make the sale. It definitely would make things easier to have friends deliver stuff for me over in the valley, but this issue still seems as clear as mud.

Edit: after reading more, I would assume transferring a long gun this way would be fine. BATF rules state you can ship a shotgun or rifle intrastate and doesn't specify a shipping method. However, they seem pretty specific on mailing handguns intrastate (which is legal, correct?) and I wouldn't think a buddy is a viable shipping option.

 

[Redcap]

Hate to bump a couple month old thread, but wouldn't it no longer be a FTF transaction if you're not meeting the buyer or seller? I only ask because I too have passed on deals where I couldn't meet face to face and didn't want to send a friend to make the sale. It definitely would make things easier to have friends deliver stuff for me over in the valley, but this issue still seems as clear as mud.

Edit: after reading more, I would assume transferring a long gun this way would be fine. BATF rules state you can ship a shotgun or rifle intrastate and doesn't specify a shipping method. However, they seem pretty specific on mailing handguns intrastate (which is legal, correct?) and I wouldn't think a buddy is a viable shipping option.

A buddy is a perfectly viable shipping method, as long as you trust the person.

 

[pokerace]

You people should buy Kevin Starrett's (OFF) book Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws...

 

[deviousdevelopment]

You people should buy Kevin Starrett's (OFF) book Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws...

I will look into that. Thanks!

Would you happen to know what the book says about this sort of thing?


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