Advice on a scope

[RifleEnthusiast]

Hi, I am looking into buying a scope and I would like some information and recommendations on scopes, here are my requirements:
1. see a 1" circle @ 100 yards at 'reasonable size' to be able to aim inside (and if possible same requirement @ 200 yards..but I know that's extra money).
2. Good quality/optics.
3. Holds zero.
4. Works well with recoil on 22 LR & 223 rem rifles.
5. Price range (hopefully in the $250 mark - may be able to push it slightly).
6. A totally cosmetic requirement - I hate the looks of scopes that are overly long .. I know it's physics, but I need to draw the line somewhere.

I am not sure if I should even go with variable or fixed magnification, I intend to use it to shoot at distances 25 yards to 100 (and as I said above if the 200 comes as an added bonus that would be nice).

I am a total newbie to scopes, and I found some Leupolds and Nikons with magnifications up to 12x that seem to fit these requirements (am not sure if 12x is sufficient for requirement 1 above though).

Can you guys give me advice or recommendations?

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[M67]

In side by side testing (in the field and off the bench) of a variety of scopes, i found one stood above the others in many areas.

My simple answer is go with Nikon. Nikon had much better clarity, sharpness and gathers more light, than the Leupolds.

M67

 

[deadshot2]

At the ranges you mentioned you aren't challenging the capabilities of even the least expensive scopes.

I bought a "Center Point" scope from Wal-Mart several years ago for a whopping $69. Put it on my HB AR-15. Works great out to 300 yards. Has Mil-Dot, Illuminated reticle in both red or green depending on which way you turn the knob. Magnification range 4-16X and a 44mm Object lense. Nice and clear. Also used it on my 30-06 so it handles recoil well.

It's not overly long but it also doesn't have the Sexy Look of the NcStar's which are all over the place. The Centerpoint is made by Crossman which developed a good rep for their .22 caliber scopes.

I still have this scope and it works fine. Only reason I changed it out was I needed room on top of my .308 5-R Milspec for a NightForce NXS.

 

[coop44]

buy a 3-9x40 leupold VX1

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

buy a 3-9x40 leupold VX1

+1 to this.
I just sold a vxll 3-9x40 scope to another member and it was a very clear piece of glass.
i replaced it with a $1300 leupold mark4 scope in 4.5-14x50 and at 9 power there was no difference in the 2 scopes except $1100.
that 3-9 power will go out 500-600 yards too.
ya know if you buy a cheapie and hit your 200 goal your gonna want to make it 300 yards right?...thats how it goes so might as well
buy a decent $200 scope and be able to go as far as you want to shoot.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

that 3-9 power will go out 500-600 yards too.

What does that actually mean? What's the smallest target that you can reasonably see at that distance to hit consistently? assuming you are a reasonably skilled shooter.

ya know if you buy a cheapie and hit your 200 goal your gonna want to make it 300 yards right?...thats how it goes so might as well
buy a decent $200 scope and be able to go as far as you want to shoot.

Boy do I know how that is, there's always the hunt for more, there's always the "I got this target here but can I get it at a further distance", there's the "if I had paid a little more I could've...", so yes I learned my lesson well, pay once (even if a lot) and be done with it once...ends up being cheaper overall.

 

[coop44]

Yep, gonna see the "as good as" here. Nothing beats good optics and good optics cost, no way around it.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

That one seems to be the one! VX-1 Rifle Scope 3-9x 40mm LR Duplex Reticle Matte
Would you guys recommend this vs a Leupold vx1 4-12x40mm (for about $50 more)?

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

That one seems to be the one! VX-1 Rifle Scope 3-9x 40mm LR Duplex Reticle Matte
Would you guys recommend this vs a Leupold vx1 4-12x40mm (for about $50 more)?

no if you can get the 12 power for $50 more do that.
this scope would be a lifetime keeper scope,it's the best optic for the cash and can go on a bigger rifle in the future say you want to hunt with a 308 bolt action rifle this scope will do that too,7mm mag?...it will work.you cant say that for all the low end $200 scopes.
i woud try to get either a mil dot reticle or varmint reticle if you can because those lines can be used as ranging tools or for bullet drop compensators as you learn more about long range shooting.however if a duplex reticle is all you can get theres nothing wrong with that.
you will love this scope trust me.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

no if you can get the 12 power for $50 more do that.
this scope would be a lifetime keeper scope,it's the best optic for the cash and can go on a bigger rifle in the future say you want to hunt with a 308 bolt action rifle this scope will do that too,7mm mag?...it will work.you cant say that for all the low end $200 scopes.
i woud try to get either a mil dot reticle or varmint reticle if you can because those lines can be used as ranging tools or for bullet drop compensators as you learn more about long range shooting.however if a duplex reticle is all you can get theres nothing wrong with that.
you will love this scope trust me.

No they only offer the VX1 in a duplex, wide duplex or LR duplex reticle, no mil dots at all. I am trying to choose between the wide vs the LR duplex, will probably buy the LR duplex, although the lines seem thicker than the wide duplex am thinking the dots will help will long range shooting if I decide to do it.

 

[OFADAN]

What does that actually mean? What's the smallest target that you can reasonably see at that distance to hit consistently?.

Here is a good rule of thumb for optics. If you can see a broadside Blacktail Deer well enough at 100 yards with the naked eye and can shoot it-harvest it with iron sights then with good optics you can accomplish the same thing with the same deer using this rule - using 3x for the same deer at 300 yards, using 5x for the same deer at 500 et al will be the same thing as seeing/shooting it 100 yards without a scope. Make sense?

So take a target half that size and now you need to double up. A half deer size target at 300 yards requires a 6x min. So let your mission dictate your optic/gear. Figure out the maximum distance you will or are competent in shooting plus the smallest size the target will be AND the kind of lightening conditions you'll most likely encounter (the larger the objective the more light it gathers) and the most effective reticle to accomplish your assignment, task, mission...

Remember optics don't make you shoot better; or make you even a better shooter, they help you see better and can also estimate range if you know how to "Optically Range", and they help you calculate and input a "Firing Solution" if you're competent in running the optic to its maximum capacity.

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

No they only offer the VX1 in a duplex, wide duplex or LR duplex reticle, no mil dots at all. I am trying to choose between the wide vs the LR duplex, will probably buy the LR duplex, although the lines seem thicker than the wide duplex am thinking the dots will help will long range shooting if I decide to do it.

while the wide duplex is likely to block your target a bit i would say its better in a leupold scope unless you have perfect eyes.
the reason i say this is because the leupold makes the thin duplex so thin its hard to see in low light and this has been the case on all the leupolds i have owned.its not a flaw but because its a high quality optic.
lucky for me my mark4 has an illuminated reticle so i can see the mills in low light.
as far as not having mildots you can do just fine if thats not an option by using a range finder and adjusting your turrets to range at distances over 200 yards.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

while the wide duplex is likely to block your target a bit i would say its better in a leupold scope unless you have perfect eyes.
the reason i say this is because the leupold makes the thin duplex so thin its hard to see in low light and this has been the case on all the leupolds i have owned.its not a flaw but because its a high quality optic.
lucky for me my mark4 has an illuminated reticle so i can see the mills in low light.
as far as not having mildots you can do just fine if thats not an option by using a range finder and adjusting your turrets to range at distances over 200 yards.

Oh wait, are we talking about the same reticles?! If the thin line portions in the middle of the wide duplex are so thin, then I think the LR duplex is probably going to be right for me, I wear glasses, so I think I wouldn't mind the middle portions on the LR duplex being slightly thicker than their counterparts in the wide duplex.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Here is a good rule of thumb for optics. If you can see a broadside Blacktail Deer well enough at 100 yards with the naked eye and can shoot it-harvest it with iron sights then with good optics you can accomplish the same thing with the same deer using this rule - using 3x for the same deer at 300 yards, using 5x for the same deer at 500 et al will be the same thing as seeing/shooting it 100 yards without a scope. Make sense?

So take a target half that size and now you need to double up. A half deer size target at 300 yards requires a 6x min. So let your mission dictate your optic/gear. Figure out the maximum distance you will or are competent in shooting plus the smallest size the target will be AND the kind of lightening conditions you'll most likely encounter (the larger the objective the more light it gathers) and the most effective reticle to accomplish your assignment, task, mission...

Remember optics don't make you shoot better; or make you even a better shooter, they help you see better and can also estimate range if you know how to "Optically Range", and they help you calculate and input a "Firing Solution" if you're competent in running the optic to its maximum capacity.

Thanks for the advice, I think I have the right basics and repeatable technique, but it's a 'little' difficult when you're trying to shoot something that you can barely see

 

[OFADAN]

I understand. BTW you can call the free 1800 number for Tech Sevices. I know most of the guys who work there in that dept and one of them is on our staff. Super great group of extremely knowledgable men and women! They will help you with your selection & choices.

I do not have my tech guide in front of me but if I recall the standard Duplex thin stadia sub tends 0.4 whereas the wide Duplex fine stadia subtends 0.5 mil if that helps.

 

[mjbskwim]

I have a couple Vortex scopes on my AR and my 223 Savage.$200 and they are 3.5-14 X50 1" tube. Almost as clear as the Nikons,with my old eyes.
Most 223 or 22s don't kick enough to be a problem so all you have to decide is how inclement of weather you will be shooting in.Then decide about waterproof and how much that is worth.Mine claim it but wouldn't want to test it in a monsoon.

I know a lot of guys that have busnells,reddings and weavers and are happy with them,too
These are the same price range with the Vortex

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I have a couple Vortex scopes on my AR and my 223 Savage.$200 and they are 3.5-14 X50 1" tube. Almost as clear as the Nikons,with my old eyes.
Most 223 or 22s don't kick enough to be a problem so all you have to decide is how inclement of weather you will be shooting in.Then decide about waterproof and how much that is worth.Mine claim it but wouldn't want to test it in a monsoon.

I know a lot of guys that have busnells,reddings and weavers and are happy with them,too
These are the same price range with the Vortex

And Vortex has an unbelievable, lifetime, no-fault warranty. I bought one second hand that was defective and they replaced it for free. They even offered to upgrade from the $300 model to their $600 model for $150 upgrade fee.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Ok, I had to go hunt for the subtension measurements and the data I found is clearly very different from what the pictures on the internet convey. These are the numbers from Leupold's manuals. As far as subtensions going from the finest to the coarser they are as follows Duplex < Wide Duplex < LR Duplex.
At 12x, the duplex is 0.2"(0.5 cms), the wide duplex is 0.2" (0.6 cms), the LR duplex is 0.24 MOA (doing calculations it turns out to be 0.25" or 0.6375 cms).
At 9x, the duplex is 0.3" (0.7 cms), the wide is 0.3" (0.9 cms), the LR duplex is 0.32 MOA (calculating, it is 0.335" or 0.85 cms).

So now I can understand what the hardwood floor guy was saying about about the "thin" duplex being very thin.
With this new information I am probably going to end up buying the 4-12x40 with a wide duplex reticle.

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

Ok, I had to go hunt for the subtension measurements and the data I found is clearly very different from what the pictures on the internet convey. These are the numbers from Leupold's manuals. As far as subtensions going from the finest to the coarser they are as follows Duplex < Wide Duplex < LR Duplex.
At 12x, the duplex is 0.2"(0.5 cms), the wide duplex is 0.2" (0.6 cms), the LR duplex is 0.24 MOA (doing calculations it turns out to be 0.25" or 0.6375 cms).
At 9x, the duplex is 0.3" (0.7 cms), the wide is 0.3" (0.9 cms), the LR duplex is 0.32 MOA (calculating, it is 0.335" or 0.85 cms).

So now I can understand what the hardwood floor guy was saying about about the "thin" duplex being very thin.
With this new information I am probably going to end up buying the 4-12x40 with a wide duplex reticle.

good choice!...most people i know say the thin duplex dont bother them much but my eyes are bad so sometimes you cant tell if your crosshairs are on target.again leupold made them this way to not block your view but i like to see my aiming point.
this scope is nitrogen filled too so it wont fog up in the rain and you can have target turrets made for your bullet choice too from leupold custom shop so you have built in moa adjustments.

 

[Iceman04503]

I had a primary arms 3x9 with the mil dot and light up reticle for $80 on my s&w m&p 15-22 and it worked great. I now have a redfield revolution 4x12 with the 4-plex reticle on my ar15-.223 and the lens is so much clearer than the primary arms. Redfields are cheap and great scopes made by leupold. They come with a lifetime warranty. You can get the 4-plex reticle or the accu-range reticle. Heres the description on the accu-range:

"The reticle comes with precise aiming points that work with most popular hunting loads. For many standard cartridges, sight in at 200 yards with the center crosshair, and the remaining hold points are dialed in up to 500 yards. The bottom of the circle intersects the vertical crosshair at the 300-yard aim point, the dot is your hold for 400 yards, and the bottom post provides a 500-yard aiming point. For faster, magnum-caliber rifles shooting light bullets, you can sight in at 300 yards, and have hold points for 400, 500, and 600 yards."

I've worked for leupold in the assembly department and i know for a fact they put great care and attention to detail in their scopes. I've handled pretty much every scope they've made.