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Additional Training CHL Holders Should Seek

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by el gringo loco, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. el gringo loco

    el gringo loco PDX Member

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    We have another thread that asks what additional requirements "Tha Gummint" should impose upon CHL applicants before they are granted a CHL. That thread basically devolved into a debate about the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. That is not what this thread is about. I don't care if you want to see your suggestions pursued voluntarily or required by statute, I just want to know what they are. What training do you think people should seek out? What deficiencies do you think are the most common? What resources do you suggest? What are important tidbits of knowledge do you think everyone should know? What do they need to know?

    To start out, I would like to say that I think that an overwhelming majority of CHL holders are familiar and competent with their firearms and have a working understanding of the legal issues surrounding the use of deadly force. A small, but significant percentage are either not as competent/practiced with their weapon as they should be, or are ill-informed about the law. I admit that I was once neither as competent with my gun as I should have been, nor did I have a very accurate understanding of the law. I don't think of these folks as being as much a danger to the public at large, but more of a hazard to themselves in a criminal or civil liability nature. In other words, a well-intentioned, otherwise law abiding gun owner could find themselves in hot water because what they thought the law said was different than what the law actually said.

    In my opinion, the familiarity/competency issue is easily solved by attending a day or two of defensive handgun training and then practice, practice, practice. Those who don't are just being, at best, lazy, and, at worst, irresponsible or negligent.

    The issue of having a true understanding of the laws surrounding the use of deadly force is more complex. I have met, talked to, or read a post from many a CHL holder who was deficient in this area of training. I think that this deficiency is rooted in a few core issues:

    1. The CHL holder reads the statute and makes a literal interpretation of the wording without an understanding of the case law that answers the many "what if?" gray areas.

    2. The CHL holder has an opinion, based on their own ethics, morals, politics, friends, experiences, or favorite movie that leads them to believe that "the law says..." without ever actually looking it up or consulting with an attorney.

    3. The CHL holder has attended training and "my instructor said..." is what they base their knowledge of the law on.

    To counter these issues, I believe that we must all admit that we do not have, and probably never will have, a complete understanding of the laws surrounding the use of deadly force. After acknowledging this, I suggest every CHL holder (for your own sake) do the following:

    1. Read the statutes and any case law you can get your hands on. Read information provided by OFF and other organizations. Talk to an attorney/judge/police officer versed in the laws surrounding the use of deadly force both from a civil and a criminal perspective. Expect conflicting opinions and then ask them to back up their opinions with case law. Seek multiple opinions and the basis of those opinions.

    2. Seek out training about the legal aspects of the use of deadly force. Understand that while many "experts" may be very knowledgeable about this subject in general terms, that few will have specific knowledge as it pertains to the statutes, and more importantly, the case law in your state or locality. Seek out local instructors. Many of the big names travel throughout the entire country and may not always make a clear distinction between their opinion (perhaps correctly based on the laws in their own region) and the laws that apply to you.

    3. Learn the different standards used in criminal versus civil court. You may fall into that gray area where you are not criminally liable, but face paying civil
    damages.

    4. Get a large liability policy (ie. an umbrella policy). I believe NRA members receive a small policy automatically. This will cover you in other situations in life and will avoid the stress of waiting through 2-3 years of lawsuits to learn whether or not you are going to be destitute. (And, no, I don't sell insurance).
    Sorry for such a long post, but this is something I have been thinking about for a while.
     
  2. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    In my experience we waste a huge amount of thought process on the tool (caliber, style, action, reloads etc) and very little on the mental and emotional ramifications of pulling the trigger.
     
  3. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    I would argue this is backwards. I would argue most CHL holders get the license without a full understanding of most the issues surrounding the responsibility.

    That being said, a class like Mas Ayoob's where not only the physical actions of carrying a gun are discussed, but also the mental and legal aspects of it. At the very least, read the ORS statutes and take more training not only to become proficient, but also to stay proficient with their guns...
     
  4. SteelyDan

    SteelyDan Junction City Active Member

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    All CHL holders should be lawyers so they can fight off the loads of dung imposed on them by the government and un-informed citizens.
     
  5. sprice37

    sprice37 Albany Oregon Active Member

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    Thw way I see it my gun will only come out if I am in fear of my life and there is no way out of the situation therefore I am going to pull the trigger. Almost every situation has a way out without using a gun in my perspective. The few that do not will suck for whoever is behind the gun but in the end hopefully they come out with their life.
     
  6. BlvdKing

    BlvdKing Almost Boring Member

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    I would recommend a minimum of 1 class that includes firing at least 500 rounds a year plus regular range time
     
  7. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    I urge anyone concerned with self-defense firearms to serve on jury duty when called. You need to understand that the American legal system is "adversarial", and that "innocent until proven guilty" is only borderline true. Jury duty allows you to see how IGNORANT and even STUPID jury members can be, and how easily they can be misled by an ambitious prosecutor. Truth, Justice, Self-defense, Justification, Motive, Intentions---all of these concepts are not cast in stone, but rather are putty to be molded by the prosecutor to present a bias to the jury. You can do all of the right things in a shooting for all of the right reasons, and some ignorant jury can still be misled into sending you to prison anyway........................elsullo :(
     
  8. keystir

    keystir Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    1.) Take a course on legal issues dealing with the laws for concealed carry and and ramifications of using your firearm. Test following class showing proficient knowledge of subject matter.

    2. Class on dealing with stress/psychological issues of using deadly force.

    3. Practical shooting course with test at end of class to show proficiency in firearm use and safety.

    The responsibility of carrying a ccw in public is huge and should not be taken lightly. Every time a cwl license holder commits a crime or does something stupid it makes the fight to keep and expand our 2nd amendment rights that much harder. I would like to see an independent non government pro-gun organization offer their own CCW that far exceeds the requirements of the state governments that allow cc. I think if the general population understood how seriously most people take the responsibility of carrying a firearm and that the safe, proficient use of firearms is an honorable act it may help to expand gun rights in the future.
     
  9. Fister35

    Fister35 Albany, OR New Member

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    The one area I would like to see CHL's get a little more training in is the "Use of Force Continuum". I also don't think, JMHO, that the "Ability, opportunity, jeopardy" standard is emphasized enough in CHL classes, or to the general gun owning public for that manner.
     
  10. el gringo loco

    el gringo loco PDX Member

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    Good point. I do think that a majority of CHL holders eventually get the knowledge they need to have. However, way to much time passes (years), all while they are carrying, before that happens. I don't really agree with the NRA's assertion that the low number of CHL holders who use deadly force unjustly indicates that the vast majority of CHL holders have adequate training. I think that most CHL holders are never put in a position to use deadly force and that, for those that are, most deadly force encounters fall into the realm of legality by virtue of luck, not because of the CHL holder's broad understanding of the law. The law allows for the use of deadly force in most cases that most people might be tempted to use it.
     
  11. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Though I don't want to see further government mandated training I do feel CHL holders are personally responsible for and have a personal duty to take some additional training. I also feel anyone with a gun in their home needs training and needs to have their kids take training.

    My kids and I have taken many classes and will take more in the future.
     
  12. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    I work at a range 40+ hours a week.

    I have a on going joke with my buddy who owns a gun shop where I tell him "don't forget the IQ test". From what I see on a daily basis people are getting a chl before they even buy a gun, let alone know how the gun functions or any gun safety.

    Yeah California gun laws suck, but at least they require a safety course before obtaining a firearm.

    I see plenty of people who have a chl that I wouldn't want them owning a rubberband gun let alone carrying a firearm.

    A huge percentage of the people who have a chl have no training in safety and or defensively running a gun. Not to mention the law or ramifications of using a firearm.

    It really boils down to, just because someone can doesn't mean they should.
     
  13. spider

    spider Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    I have a friend across the country that loves guns, but never shot one, hes a city boy that's terrified of the woods, and hasnt dropped the dime to join a range, so he got his chl, and asked me what next....I told him to go to an anger management course, like I did, so no matter what situation hes in, he can at least talk it down, instead of whipping out a 44.
     
  14. dan10mmman

    dan10mmman puget sound Member

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    Perhaps everyone getting a concealed permit should read Dave Workmans book "Gun Rights and Responsibilities" IMHO it should be read before and after obtaining a carry gun. Heck I think it should be given to everyone applying for a permit. Written in laymans terms and full of good information. Most gun shops have it for sale for only $11 or $12, or order it from Dave @
    D&D Gunleather
    Dave Workman is an author, senior editor of Gun Week, communications director for the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, award-winning outdoor writer, former member of the NRA Board of Directors.
     
  15. riverrat373

    riverrat373 Washington State Member

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    Absolutely!:thumbup:
     
  16. riverrat373

    riverrat373 Washington State Member

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    +1:thumbup:
     
  17. Teufel_Hunden

    Teufel_Hunden Albany, Oregon Active Member

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    First in all honesty one cannot know too much about anything. More knowlege surrounding safe legal firearms handling including legality would benefit all. But (you knew this was coming) there are plenty of rules and regualtaions on the books now. Everyone will hate the slippery slope deal but I oppose any additional governmet meddling into my life.

    If we open ourselves to this type of expanded government regulation it never seems to end.

    Knowlege YES!


    No to any additional MANDATED rules or regulations.

    Just say NO!

    ps- the ones that I truly would educate themselves in regards to CC are law enforcement. My 16 year old son knows more about this than most LEO's. Sad!
     
  18. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    :thumbup:I agree 100%

    First thing I always say on non gun sites to people that are "thinking of getting a gun for protection" is if you can't KILL someone you shouldn't carry a gun.

    Now say what you must for all the legal reasons,but bottom line is you may kill someone when "stopping the threat"

    I believe the other thing people do is practice to "cowboy up" and quick draw.

    If I am in the woods I open carry and watch the surroundings.
    On the bike,the gun is in the box anyway.

    In an urban environment that I am carrying because I don't like the surroundings?
    I usually have the pistol in my left pocket (if I am doing something with the right,non ambi here) in my hand.
    This way nobody takes it from my holster or from my hand,because they don't know it's there until it goes off.
    If I had to work in a bad area or needed to carry everyday,I would velcro the pockets to pull away as to release the gun.

    All ways someone faster that may take a weapon from you.
    The main thing you can do is to be aware of everyone around you and watch for exit paths.
    All the training in the world doesn't do any good if you aren't aware.

    I don't think we realize how many thugs we put off by the way we hold ourselves
     
  19. OFARICK

    OFARICK Brownsville, Ore New Member

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    I would recommend checking out www.oregonfirearmsacademy.com web site, research Defensive handgun 1, Defensive handgun 2 and defensive handgun 3 and read thru all the course content offered in all three courses. these courses are what I would recommend for the person who already has a CHL and want's to obtain additional training and these three classes are just the beginning. There's MORE!
     
  20. Infidel

    Infidel Tigard New Member

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    You can never get enough training. It might save your life or someone elses someday.