Washington ACLDN - Received a Cease and Desist Order For Network

[User 1234]

The problem with suing the state is that (at least the ACLDN letter linked above) is that the state used a generic law to shut them down. Despite the press releases about "murder insurance" the state isn't using that argument to shut ACLDN down.

The suit against the state here would have to argue that this insurance plan must be exempt from the generally-applicable laws because of some constitutional privilege. That argument usually fails. It would be stronger if the activity was closer to the core of the 2A (such as gun shops having a 2A right to stay open and sell guns during health emergencies). The suit would also have to wait until the administrative remedies and agency appeals process had been exhausted, or was unavailable.

 

[coltemp]

***Deleted rant I made. ****
I get what User1234 is trying to say but I think he is off base here and using that same logic if it applied why is it not applied across the board to all these other questionable so called insurance policies that supposedly violate the exact same points.

 

[Mathias]

All states have insurance commissions and commissioners and rules for insurance. These commish are very protective of their kingdoms.

So, is it not insurance? The commission can rule that it is insurance "in kind". A good example is that an Air Life, or a Lifeflight, med transport "membership" is not available in Washington state. This membership allows the member to be protected against the high cost of a possible medical transport. The word "insurance" or "insured" is nowhere to be found in any brochures, paperwork, etc. But because "protected against" is either stated or implied, the WA state insurance commish ruled it as insurance not licensed in WA, not approved, and therefore prohibited.


bb - Former Air Life of Oregon Representative for NE Oregon

It's obvious we have to vote out people in the current state administration....

 

[bbbass]

It's obvious we have to vote out people in the current state administration....and make sure 1234 doesn't get in there as well.

I can understand the problem with saying that it is murder insurance. But @User 1234 is trying to give you the straight scoop on insurance commissions having all the power to make arbitrary decisions... are those positions (on the commission) not appointed? If so, perhaps a new regime will see a change in anti-gun tendencies. But as I mentioned my earlier post, Washington state has a long history of labeling "membership" plans as "insurance-in-kind".

I have experience in this and you would do well to research the history of insurance decrees in your state. As well as learning to play nice with others. IMO, your snide remark about User 1234 not getting into office does not reflect well on you as a forum member, nor IMO does it further your purposes here.

 

[Diamondback]

I can understand the problem with saying that it is murder insurance. But @User 1234 is trying to give you the straight scoop on insurance commissions having all the power to make arbitrary decisions... are those positions (on the commission) not appointed? If so, perhaps a new regime will see a change in anti-gun tendencies. But as I mentioned my earlier post, Washington state has a long history of labeling "membership" plans as "insurance-in-kind".

I have experience in this and you would do well to research the history of insurance decrees in your state. As well as learning to play nice with others. IMO, your snide remark about User 1234 not getting into office does not reflect well on you as a forum member, nor IMO does it further your purposes here.

We have a single elected Commissioner, who's basically your typical Seattle Selected Waste of Viable Organs.

 

[bbbass]

We have a single elected Commissioner, who's basically your typical Seattle Selected Waste of Viable Organs.

Aha.

Yeah, vote him out.

Nicely.

 

[Diamondback]

Aha.

Yeah, vote him out.

Nicely.

Got a plan when Seattle installs their guy in ALL statewide offices by hook or crook?

 

[bbbass]

Got a plan when Seattle installs their guy in ALL statewide offices by hook or crook?

I'm not understanding your question.

 

[Mathias]

I can understand the problem with saying that it is murder insurance. But @User 1234 is trying to give you the straight scoop on insurance commissions having all the power to make arbitrary decisions... are those positions (on the commission) not appointed? If so, perhaps a new regime will see a change in anti-gun tendencies. But as I mentioned my earlier post, Washington state has a long history of labeling "membership" plans as "insurance-in-kind".

I have experience in this and you would do well to research the history of insurance decrees in your state. As well as learning to play nice with others. IMO, your snide remark about User 1234 not getting into office does not reflect well on you as a forum member, nor IMO does it further your purposes here.

@User1234....You obviously are much more knowledgeable about insurance and I appologize for my disparaging remark. I hope we can find a way to overcome the roadblocks this states politicians keep throwing our way. My best to you and thanks for your input.

I can understand the problem with saying that it is murder insurance. But @User 1234 is trying to give you the straight scoop on insurance commissions having all the power to make arbitrary decisions... are those positions (on the commission) not appointed? If so, perhaps a new regime will see a change in anti-gun tendencies. But as I mentioned my earlier post, Washington state has a long history of labeling "membership" plans as "insurance-in-kind".

I have experience in this and you would do well to research the history of insurance decrees in your state. As well as learning to play nice with others. IMO, your snide remark about User 1234 not getting into office does not reflect well on you as a forum member, nor IMO does it further your purposes here.

user1234. You are obviously much more informed on insurance issues than I and I appologize for my disparaging remark. I hope that we can overcome the roadblocks our state govt keeps throwing our way. My best to you and thanks for your insight.

 

[Diamondback]

I'm not understanding your question.

What's your plan to overcome Seattle's shenanigans (remember Rossi v Gregoire? "if at first you don't succeed, keep counting til you DO") and elect "Anybody But Kreidler"?

 

[bbbass]

@User1234....You obviously are much more knowledgeable about insurance and I appologize for my disparaging remark. I hope we can find a way to overcome the roadblocks this states politicians keep throwing our way. My best to you and thanks for your input.

user1234. You are obviously much more informed on insurance issues than I and I appologize for my disparaging remark. I hope that we can overcome the roadblocks our state govt keeps throwing our way. My best to you and thanks for your insight.

You were upset. We all need a good rant sometimes. Thanx for this post!!!

 

[bbbass]

What's your plan to overcome Seattle's shenanigans (remember Rossi v Gregoire? "if at first you don't succeed, keep counting til you DO") and elect "Anybody But Kreidler"?

I barely remember the Gregoire race, but it seems like all the others in the last decade. Here and there. Patty Whatsher name, etc. Chicago style politics at it's finest. There's those ballots they found in a closet or in the trunk of a car too!!!

Why do I need a plan? I'm an Oregon resident and spoke up about insurance when another member commented on the "membership" plan being assaulted by a lousy politician. I asked about the politician being appointed. You said he was elected. So I then agreed he should be voted out... this agreeing obligates me to come up with a plan for un-electing future Washington State politicians???.... If I could do that, would I win the Nobel? No wait... they give those away as participation trophies now, I don't want one.

 

[Diamondback]

I barely remember the Gregoire race, but it seems like all the others in the last decade. Here and there. Patty Whatsher name, etc. Chicago style politics at it's finest. There's those ballots they found in a closet or in the trunk of a car too!!!

Why do I need a plan? I'm an Oregon resident and spoke up about insurance when another member commented on the "membership" plan being assaulted by a lousy politician. I asked about the politician being appointed. You said he was elected. So I then agreed he should be voted out... this agreeing obligates me to come up with a plan for un-electing future Washington State politicians???.... If I could do that, would I win the Nobel? No wait... they give those away as participation trophies now, I don't want one.

Not trying to call you out personally, amigo, it's just kind of a reflex when people tell me "YOU need to [fill in the blank]" after we've been trying for years against a rigged system.

 

[bbbass]

Not trying to call you out personally, amigo, it's just kind of a reflex when people tell me "YOU need to [fill in the blank]" after we've been trying for years against a rigged system.

Yet you address my comment by quoting it, so your were addressing me, personally. All I was doing was agreeing with you and Mathias. And I get a knee jerk question/challenge in return.

Seems like we have a misunderstanding.... Okay if I consider the matter closed?

 

[coltemp]

To the rest of you reading this youmay want to check the PDF on the order for motion by the other people fighting this arbitrary violation by the commissioner.
So far there are two organizations that refuse to roll over. Download the PDF and read the legal arguments for why the commission is full of manure.

While user 1234 makes some good points it would be interesting to get his read from lawyers who are working on this. And yes others have beat the state in court over violations like this before. The ACLDN has that same lawyer on their team to fight this.

Demand for hearing and objections to the Cease and Desist

You will have to read past the lawyer speak but the exhibit B addresses each and every point in a very similar cease and desist sent to these guys that was sent to ACLDN.

ALSO here is the email sent to us today: (Has the link from above plus some others.

Dear Network Member: Since my March 31 announcement about the Washington State Insurance Commissioner (OIC) issuing the Network an order to cease and desist selling in WA State, we have received many, many questions from non-Washington State members asking if this order affects them. The answer is NO. This action by the OIC has no affect on any person outside the State of Washington. So, if you live in a state other than Washington, please relax and understand that nothing has changed for you. I am hearing from some members who are concerned about this legal fight taking down the Legal Defense Fund. While the State of Washington would like nothing more, that is not going to happen. We have been anticipating this action for 11 months, ever since the OIC notified us that we were under investigation. Consequently, we have been tightening our belts and setting money aside for this legal fight. We have sufficient money in our operating and reserve accounts to mount a protracted legal fight with them, and will not be touching the Legal Defense Fund for this fight. We have also received a few contributions from members concerned about the issue, and they have been gratefully received and rat-holed away for this fight. Thank you. As far as the legal fight goes, we have already filed a notice of appeal, and as soon as we can, will request a stay of the cease and desist order, to allow us to get back to accepting orders from Washington State residents. While there is no guarantee that a stay will be granted, requesting it is the second step in the fight (after filing the notice of appeal). We have hired an experienced attorney who recently won a case similar to ours against the OIC, and I have full confidence that he will represent us very well. We have had multiple attorneys serving as legal counsel all along, but this attorney specializes in this area of law, and we are fortunate to have found him. Some members have asked for clarification about our legal argument because they read the cease and desist order and to them, it seemed reasonable. Here is our argument in a nutshell: The definition of insurance in Washington State is: "A contract whereby one undertakes to indemnify another or pay a specified amount upon a determinable contingency." In our case, (1) we have no written contract of insurance with our members, instead our members simply join a membership organization. (2) We indemnify no one. (3) We do not pay any specified amounts to anyone (4) and the act of self defense is not a determinable contingency, but instead, a voluntary, intentional act. It is not a contingency. Make no mistake, the OIC's action is politically motivated: it is anti-gun, not focused on consumer protection. In our 12 years in business, the OIC never received a complaint involving the Network, and while they had us under investigation for 11 months, we operated without restriction. To understand the bigger picture in WA State, use the links below to read the press releases regarding the OIC's action against the NRA and USCCA. Kreidler: NRA insurance solicitations prompt additional investigation | Washington state Office of the Insurance Commissioner Kreidler fines USCCA $100,000 for illegal insurance sales, policies | Washington state Office of the Insurance Commissioner In addition to the NRA, USCCA and the Network, the WA insurance commissioner has also taken action against several other similar products. See below: US Law Shield https://fortress.wa.gov/oic/consume...aspx?OrderNumber=jymTeeLiwooeFXOWryX3aQ%3D%3D Firearms Legal Protection https://fortress.wa.gov/oic/consume...aspx?OrderNumber=IjSa34UYaEALKiqLbOLEaw%3D%3D CCW Safe https://fortress.wa.gov/oic/consume...px?OrderNumber=eKgGslQ%2BViXDDkCuP8kMLg%3D%3D As to the above actions, the NRA, USCCA, US Law Shield and Firearms Legal Protection all agreed to accept the fines and quit doing business in Washington State. Along with the Network, only CCW Safe is fighting the OIC. A final point: Getting back to Washington State members' situation–we are at this moment prohibited from selling to WA residents, but nothing in the order says we cannot complimentarily extend a grace period to our WA members facing membership expiration in the next few months. Consequently, we are mailing letters to our WA members that serve as notice that we are offering a 90-day grace period in which membership benefits remain available to WA memberships with expirations in March, April and May. At the end of the grace period, if we have not received a stay of the OIC's order, we will re-examine the question. So far, NO Network member has been cut off, and membership benefits remain available to ALL members. As always, we keep our primary focus on the needs of Network members. This is how we do business here at the Network, and as long as I am President of the company, it is how we will continue to do business. I hope this clarifies your understanding of the issues. If you have additional questions, e-mail me at [email protected], but please don't call. Because of the COVID-19 issue, we are understaffed and have only one person handling all phone calls. Sincerely, Marty Hayes President Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, Inc. Post Office Box 400, Onalaska, WA 98570 ACLDN You're prepared to defend yourself. Can you survive the legal aftermath of self defense? Join the Network so you can access Attorney and legal expenses paid after a self-defense incident. armedcitizensnetwork.org 360-978-5200

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[User 1234]

I hope those arguments prevail.

 

[Darell M]

Cut your wife's bra in half then you'll have two

 

[Caveman Jim]

Sent email. How in the world can anyone continue to live under this communist regime called liberalism?

It's because most gun owners here are too chicken bubblegum to do anything so they keep silent about all the havoc these blue bloods are wreaking on our rights & freedoms on the Left Coast.
Say it ain't so....

 

[Diamondback]

It's because most gun owners here are to chicken bubblegum to do anything so they keep silent about all the havoc these blue bloods are wreaking on our rights & freedoms on the Left Coast.
Say it ain't so....

AKA, the kind described in my signature...

 

[Caveman Jim]

AKA, the kind described in my signature...

Indeed!