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Accidental Exposure

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by ironhead, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. ironhead

    ironhead East of the liberal masses in Oregon Member

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    I am sure this has been answered before but search brought nothing up. In Oregon, say at the grocery store you squat down for a item on the lower shelf and your weapon is exposed, someone calls the police, man with a gun, what are your rights. I ask this because on another forum this happened to someone and the responding LEO's wanted to arrest the person even though in that state (PA), there was no offense commited. LEO's didn't know the laws. Is that considered brandishing (sp) in Oregon. Thanks All
     
  2. chickenhead

    chickenhead Oregon New Member

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    As I understand it, your hand needs to be on the gun for it to be brandishing. Other wise every time yo OC'ed you would be brandishing.
     
  3. Oro

    Oro Western WA Active Member

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    If you look up the definition of "brandishing" you will see it is clearly using the weapon to intimidate someone. The situation above in no way qualifies as "brandishing." There's also no codified penalty for momentarily and inadvertently revealing a concealed weapon.

    Besides, an UNconcealed weapon is called an "open carry." Open carry is legal in Oregon, and even in places where cities have pre-empted that, it's legal for concealed carry holders.

    There is just nothing against the law about the situation; people on gun boards get insanely twisted about "printing" and a brief exposure of a concealed weapon. The problem is there's just nothing illegal about it in Oregon or Wash.
     
  4. durango#95

    durango#95 Medford New Member

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    I think that sums it up nicely!:thumbup:
     
  5. wayoutwest

    wayoutwest Polk County, Oregon Active Member

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    I am pretty sure Oregon does not have law / ORS regarding Brandishing...

    There are often calls for a "man with a gun" and a call is dispatched for a "Armed Person" same thing will happen with Open Carry....Officers will have to respond....proper questions from call takers and dispatch as to what the person is doing, acting, how they are carrying tend to give officers more of an idea what they are responding to. They will stop you, run you, verify your CHL....

    You are right, officers don't know all the laws but have you looked to see how many there are
     
  6. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    Correct. In Oregon, if someone is "brandishing" a gun, the authorities have to pigeon-hole it into some recognized crime. And it's not a crime to have your CC weapon showing in a supermarket if you have a CHL.

    It may violate store policy, in which case you can be asked to leave. If you refuse, that's criminal trespass, and you can be arrested and prosecuted for that. So spare the argument with the manager about your gun rights. It's his store.
     
    WAYNO likes this.
  7. ironhead

    ironhead East of the liberal masses in Oregon Member

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    Thanks All.
     
  8. S3v3n

    S3v3n Beaverton, Or Active Member

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    I know this is an old thread but I have a question about "brandishing". Is it considered "Brandishing" If say someone is physically confronting me and I reach back for my pistol but not pull it? Lets say that action is enough to make the person confronting me back off and I have no further need to pull.

    My view on this would say no as to me it would be more of a deffensive stance but I can see how it be seen as using the weapon to intimidate someone.
     
  9. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    What if it's enough to make them shoot you?

    An opponent not ready to finish what they start is someone on the wrong side of the power curve, in my respectful opinion.
     
  10. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    If your affraid for your life, reach away...
     
  11. PiratePast40

    PiratePast40 Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    Someone already established that brandishing isn't addressed in Oregon law. However, menacing is: http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.190. Wouldn't think it applies to a defensive action.
     
  12. S3v3n

    S3v3n Beaverton, Or Active Member

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    To be honest if reaching for my firearm caused them to reach then I would pull. If they already had theirs drawn then we are talking about a different issue. Remember the question was about them confronting me physically.

    I would think them becoming physical with me makes them a threat and me simply placing my hand on my firearm is a reaction to that threat.

    If I am wrong please by all means correct me as I want to be clear on it.
     
  13. pokerace

    pokerace Newberg Well-Known Member

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    In my case, I am a small man and 77 years old and not in the best physical shape, If confronted I will draw my weapon and use it if necessary......There is no way I could tolerate a beating... To me that is a deffensive stance.
     
    Sgt Nambu and Caveman Jim like this.
  14. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    Someone reaching for something the opponents can't see, as a defensive response is provoking the situation, and worse, telegraphing that the defenders have not made the ultimate decision. It's a half-measure. And it could provide a legal defense for the perpetrators to use, as to why they went ahead and shot first. You'll be dead and they'll have halos and just "couldn't understand why (the victim) acted that way."

    Consider:
    How is a anyone going to know the mindset of opponents in the fraction of a second there might be, between the defender reaching as a gesture, vs. the attackers pulling a trigger from a pocket pistol? or breaking the defenders nose with a quick step forward or knifing them with a hidden blade? You wouldn't believe how fast it happens until it has happened to you.

    IMO escalating with posturing and bluster is a poor, possibly fatal idea. The opponents may have already decided to shoot at the first provocation, and someone reaching and not drawing sends the message to them that the defender has not committed to the final action. Maybe they don't even have anything. Maybe they're going to draw and shoot them. So now they have to act.

    It often comes down to a deal where one guy has decided to shoot the other guy already and the defending guy is hoping it won't come to it. Which one has the advantage? Obviously the one who has decided to shoot first.

    Presented with a potentially lethal threat, I'm going to draw and acquire a target picture, ready to shoot and issue verbal commands to get back, show me your hands, RIGHT NOW.

    or if verbal commands don't get it done, I may use other tools such as less lethal OC or Taser. But I am ready to use them when I present them. I don't threaten or bluff people. Know it or not, they are on the verge of becoming extremely changed real quick if they don't comply.

    This is why a gun alone is an incomplete tool kit. To sum up, no, I wouldn't, nor do I recommend the actions described. If you reach... then draw, and be willing and ready to shoot. If not, do something else.
     
    IronMonster likes this.
  15. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Now I am not any sort of an expert, the following is purely my opinion (which along with $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks)

    The simple answer is you dont draw your gun unless you intend to shoot a person and shoot to kill.

    There is no other legitimate reason. You dont draw your gun to scare someone. You dont draw your gun because your mad. You dont draw your gun because some guy is screaming in your face (although you better be ready to)

    I have been in a situation where I broke up a fight. I got the guys apart and the guy who was winning the fight came at me and started screaming in my face in a threatening manner. I had my hands behind my back, the right one on my carry pistol. I stayed calm, I maintained eye contact and told him I was just trying to keep him from killing the guy. Its none of my business what is going on but its in your best interest to end this now. It seemed like a awful long time before he calmed down a bit an walked away. I never told him I had a gun, nor made any verbal threats. Calm, cool and try and maintain control of the situation, but be prepared to act.

    When you are carrying a firearm you have to hold yourself to a much higher standard. You cannot lose your temper, You have a legal and moral obligation to deescalate the situation with no exceptions. You only draw as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. You need to have a reasonable expectation that the intent of the other person is to kill you or at the very least cause great bodily harm.



    Here is something that really happened (although it did not happen to me so I may not get all the details right)

    Two guys got in a road rage incident. They where cutting each other off, slamming on the brakes and flipping each other off. Both had lost there cool and eventually pulled over to have it out. One of the guys charged at the other, who had a CCW. The guy with the gun legitimately feared for his life, drew it and shot the guy.

    The guy was found guilty of 2nd degree murder, why? because he had many opportunity's to deescalate the situation and chose not to. He should have stopped the car and let the guy just go.

    When you carry a firearm you simply must be in control of your emotions and hold yourself to a higher standard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    3MTA3 and Joe13 like this.
  16. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.190

    The term "brandishing" might not be used in ORS code, but 166.190 comes pretty close to the classic definition.

    Had a friend in the military who carried concealed. He was trying to discourage a teen from physically abusing his girlfriend outside a bowling alley in Newport. Before it got too rough he turned to a friend with him and handed him his handgun so it wouldn't be lost in any scuffle. Teen backed off and called the cops. Cops were talking about charging him with "brandishing". The matter was dropped as I recall.

    I doubt a simple accidental display would cause a charge of brandishing unless you really got a Barney Fife LEO and then anything is possible.
     
  17. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    Fixed it for you.
    The other way will get you some prison time if a trial ever arose.
     
  18. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Political correct terms really changes little. But yeah what you say could make a world of difference. I am sure there are a bunch of left leaning folks who think you should always try to just wound an attacker. I would never point a gun at someone if the intent was to wound them. If the intent is to wound, a gun is the wrong tool and should never even have been drawn.

    And to be clear I never want to kill anyone, it's just I want to die even less
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  19. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Generally speaking, don't reach for your gun and pull it unless you're going to use it. Some people pull guns thinking it will make the other party back down, that's no guarantee.
     
  20. mcdonsco

    mcdonsco New Member

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    I am actually pretty interested in this thread / topic as I do carry in Oregon and also have literally never been in a fight in my life.

    Knowing there are crazy people out there that might enjoy beating someone to death, I'm not going to rely on my [complete lack of] fighting skills to defend myself if backed into a corner by someone, even if its fists only...at that point they WILL see my gun (whether I use it or not at that point is up to them).

    I'm fairly certain in that situation I would have a legal problem at that point? From what I've read, menacing? If I end up having to use it though?

    Not that i ever plan on putting myself in that situation though, I don't go out to clubs/bars etc at all (unless its an occasion with friends, but even then, maybe 1-2 times per year max).

    Just curious how legally screwed I would be in said situations?