Before you accuse me of a logical fallacy, go back and read what I actually said. I simply stated that I don't see it - not because I don't personally experience it, but show me where it's happening in this country on a day to day basis. Some folks are indicating this is exactly the case. Okay, where is the evidence? I'm not talking about a SWAT team mobilizing for special circumstances - I understand that. But where is it happening day to day? Such as police doing their regular duty, patroling the streets, doing their usual duty. Can you show me that they are doing this in fatigues? With assault rifles? If it's happening, then there must be abundant evidence all over to show this. That was my question and I have yet to see anyone provide evidence of cops walking down the street with assault rifles when there isn't some event that precipitates it. That's all I'm observing. If you have real evidence, other than a slightly outdated opinion piece, I'm perfectly happy to hear it. But regarding that SWAT piece, again, show me that SWAT teams are roaming the streets as part of regular police patrols, when not caused by some unusual event. Look at other parts of the world where cops do walk around on regular patrols in fatigues and carrying battle rifles. Can you honestly tell me that's happening here at this time?
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A small taste of WROL in Ferguson, Missouri
- Thread Starter OLDNEWBIE
- Start date
Before you accuse me of a logical fallacy, go back and read what I actually said. I simply stated that I don't see it - not because I don't personally experience it, but show me where it's happening in this country on a day to day basis. Some folks are indicating this is exactly the case. Okay, where is the evidence? I'm not talking about a SWAT team mobilizing for special circumstances - I understand that. But where is it happening day to day? Such as police doing their regular duty, patroling the streets, doing their usual duty. Can you show me that they are doing this in fatigues? With assault rifles? If it's happening, then there must be abundant evidence all over to show this. That was my question and I have yet to see anyone provide evidence of cops walking down the street with assault rifles when there isn't some event that precipitates it. That's all I'm observing. If you have real evidence, other than a slightly outdated opinion piece, I'm perfectly happy to hear it. But regarding that SWAT piece, again, show me that SWAT teams are roaming the streets as part of regular police patrols, when not caused by some unusual event. Look at other parts of the world where cops do walk around on regular patrols in fatigues and carrying battle rifles. Can you honestly tell me that's happening here at this time?
The problem is these kids don't know how to steal right. What they need is some cowboy hats and American flags and a horse or two. Then they could rip the public off of tens of thousands of dollars in grazing fees and they'd be called heros. Militia would flock to their support...
I think what he is referring to is the Feds have armed our police departments with 93,000 machine guns and assorted armored vehicles. There have been many articles about this posted on the net.
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I think people are used to the fact that historically, coppers used to carry 18 whole rounds (golly!) upon their person for about forever.. back in the wheelgun days. And perhaps have a shotgun in the squad car.. if they had a squad car. Well it ain't 1980 anymore so get used to it.
The article is from 1997???
Being in the LE world for 27 years in WA State, I don't see a lot of what that article states.
Am guessing its seen more in larger metro dept.'s i.e. NYC, LA etc.
Seattle doesn't doesn't fall under a lot of what the article stated.
More US vs Them fuel for the ongoing fire.
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And as I've already stated, I don't disagree with that going on. But being armed and prepared for certain events - events that don't happen on a day to day basis, is a far cry different from being a "police state". Several comments have been made that we are in a police state now. I am asking for evidence that that is the case. Let's consider the definition of "police state" (taken from Merriam-Webster online):
a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures
I'm still waiting to hear some evidence that this is what we're living under. Because if it's happening, it certainly isn't obvious. Last I checked, we're still a democracy, not a dictatorship (regardless of what some people's opinions may be on the subject). We've got a ways to go before we reach that level. I just don't see the evidence that we're here now. I'm open to hearing it if someone has some good conclusive proof.
Hard to say. But I'm looking at 93,000 machine guns against 80,000,000 Americans armed with 300,000,000 personal firearms at their disposal. Can something bad happen? Of course. Just look back at the "Battle of Athens" in 1946. Some government officials overstepped their boundaries - and armed citizens reminded them of who is really in control:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)
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Sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. I am unwilling to do a search for you to show you how much the police departments have armed themselves with but you might want to ask yourself who they intend to use those 93,000 machine guns against. Add to that all the armored vehicles and aircraft. While every cop deserves the best equipment and training to stay alive, do they all need machinguns?
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Yes, the article is from 1997. So do think the trend described in the article has slowed, accelerated, or isn't really happening?
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But that's my point - I have done searches. And yet no one can back, with any real proof, the claim that we're living in a "police state". Arming and equipping SWAT teams is a bit different from running a totalitarian regime where the population is under the thumb of the government. Considering I can still go out, at least for now, and buy all manner of firearms, and can carry them for my protection, I'd say we're still nowhere near a true police state. Places like NY, Chicago and LA may be a little closer, but again, we're still a democracy.
Changed atmosphere in Ferguson:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ron-johnson-ferguson_n_5680351.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ron-johnson-ferguson_n_5680351.html
All the riots have a root cause in my opinion. It starts with a bad economy and no jobs then it only takes a police killing or beating to set off the population. We are on the edge of real problems and they are being ignored for a game of golf.
Under Obama more guns have been sold than were manufactured in all of WWII. Fear is a good seller.
On the surface, the numbers sound impressive. But 432 MRAP's across the entire country? 93,000 machine guns? We still outnumber and out-gun them on a huge scale. I don't know what a local police department thinks it's going to be able to do against a well armed populace (part of the reason for the 2nd amendment in the first place). I still maintain that arming SWAT teams doesn't amount to a "police state" as was claimed earlier in this thread. Could it get there? Maybe. But they'd have to go through a LOT of armed US Citizens to get there. I don't think the odds are in their favor, at this time.
Vets comment on initial Ferguson response:
https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson
https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson
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Fox reported that New Black Panthers were present, and calling for violence against the police.
Very few LE Officers have in their possession, or even have access to full auto weapons. A lot of so called SWAT teams are going away from full auto, as we are not in the biz of suppressive fire. The accuracy of such weapons is not the best. Fun to waste a lot of ammo, but are of little use in urban environments.
I have found some smaller entities have shut down their SWAT teams, the weapons...that which were full auto were either traded off, or are packed away. The other equipment found the same demise.
The article? SWAT teams did increase heavily in the 90's, as it was a response to the shoot outs I referred to above, and others not mentioned. But as of late, they have been streamlined and are more situationally focused.
2 of every 3 smaller or rural cities do not have SWAT teams. Maybe back in the 90's, not true today. What you have is most every Officer is issued an AR and has the training to respond to emergent incidents, like active school shooters etc. Training and tactics like a SWAT team? Yes, but then they have to. As there is little back up in smaller cities, such as the one I work for, and rural counties...where the back up can be 30-45 minutes or more.
Camo? No. Body armor? Been wearin' that since the mid 80's, when Richard Davis started the company called "Second Chance".
Do we get trained by Military folks, current and retired? Yes. But see above for that reason.
I never have seen SWAT teams deployed in WA. State for full time roaming patrols. Unless there was a very dangerous suspect on the loose. But then again, they were there for the above reason, not to take the usual calls for service.
No one wants to get injured, I really don't see anyone in the LE world wanting to purposely injure anyone. If there are those who are WANTING to injure folks, they need to be culled from the herd, and not with kid gloves.
I have found some smaller entities have shut down their SWAT teams, the weapons...that which were full auto were either traded off, or are packed away. The other equipment found the same demise.
The article? SWAT teams did increase heavily in the 90's, as it was a response to the shoot outs I referred to above, and others not mentioned. But as of late, they have been streamlined and are more situationally focused.
2 of every 3 smaller or rural cities do not have SWAT teams. Maybe back in the 90's, not true today. What you have is most every Officer is issued an AR and has the training to respond to emergent incidents, like active school shooters etc. Training and tactics like a SWAT team? Yes, but then they have to. As there is little back up in smaller cities, such as the one I work for, and rural counties...where the back up can be 30-45 minutes or more.
Camo? No. Body armor? Been wearin' that since the mid 80's, when Richard Davis started the company called "Second Chance".
Do we get trained by Military folks, current and retired? Yes. But see above for that reason.
I never have seen SWAT teams deployed in WA. State for full time roaming patrols. Unless there was a very dangerous suspect on the loose. But then again, they were there for the above reason, not to take the usual calls for service.
No one wants to get injured, I really don't see anyone in the LE world wanting to purposely injure anyone. If there are those who are WANTING to injure folks, they need to be culled from the herd, and not with kid gloves.
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Sorry I don't keep a browser history - just saw in the past few days a headline which read that a certain jurisdiction used SWAT to serve all warrants.
This is an example of where SWAT is over used.
Not to go to far astray - if they are serving someone with a felony record, or record of violence, then I have no issue with SWAT use. But divorce papers? Eviction notices?
This mentality then allows politicians to use LE for unlawful purposes.
Why are these people forced to be motor homes now that they have returned from Africa? Just "possible" exposure to a scary disease? Who put them on trial, who sat on the jury and convicted them?
This is an example of where SWAT is over used.
Not to go to far astray - if they are serving someone with a felony record, or record of violence, then I have no issue with SWAT use. But divorce papers? Eviction notices?
This mentality then allows politicians to use LE for unlawful purposes.
Why are these people forced to be motor homes now that they have returned from Africa? Just "possible" exposure to a scary disease? Who put them on trial, who sat on the jury and convicted them?
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