A once proud American

[PaulB47]

"We didn't kill the indigenous people here any more than they were killing each other."

Well that is manifestly untrue. The Indian population was stable before we got here, crashed after we got here. That is different than saying there ought to be reparations somehow. But at least we should not violate any more treaties than we already have, as is still happening in some places.

 

[mjbskwim]

Well that is manifestly untrue.

They were waring and killing each other way before we got here.
Just like every other tribe in the world was
And WTF does "manifestly untrue" mean anyway? Did my statement manifest itself somehow ?

 

[tac]

That's not accurate Garg.
Invasions involve extensive military personnel and battle plans from the beginning.
By definition the pilgrims were refugees, attempting to avoid religious persecution as well as subjective and unreasonable prosecution and subsequent imprisonment by the forces and capricious laws of King George.

And that's not accurate either - King George I was not actually born until forty years after the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. He did not become king of England until 1714, 94 years after the landing, and did not persecute other Protestants, being of that persuasion himself. His predecessor on the throne was the Protestant Queen Anne, and HER predecessor was William of Orange, THE definitive Protestant, who fought and won the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 to usurp the extremely unpopular Catholic James II.

tac

 

[dobeman]

I suppose after the "New" invaders have out populated, or killed the "New"
natives (us) they'll move the stubborn, surviving non-muslims to reservations and pay us treaty money?
My only question is....so when do I get my Casino?

Problem is the conquerors take the prime real estate and leave bubblegum for the interned. If I am on a reservation I want beachfront sunny temperate climate, with access to vineyards, shooting and other pleasures.

 

[dobeman]

In Islam, you must pay a jizya (Muslim Tax) and you will be treated as a second class citizen. Read about the lifestyles of the Jews and Christians who lived in the Islamic lands throughout history. Despite, being almost completely exterminated, the ones who could pay were allowed to live or not sell their daughters as sex slaves, etc.

No casinos, but if you get a nice ruler, he may promise not to ransack your village and allow you to practice your "Book Religion" /Monotheistic religion without executing you.

Check the number of native reservations in Muslim countries. All the natives had to integrate, live as slaves (Only Monotheists, Christians, Jews, etc) or were executed.


IF you want to read an interesting history of Islamic invasion into India and Pakistan (which use to be mostly part of India before Moghul invasion), you can read about the Sikh wars against the Moghul empire. The type of things done to Sikhs were horrifying. Basically, convert to our Islamic religion or we will bound you in ropes and saw you in half..

View attachment 264826

Had it not been for the Sikh resistance against the Islamic immigrants (invaders) into India, all of India would have been a Muslim country today, as the policy of Muslims was to force conversions of all Hindus and Sikhs.

I am proud to be on a forum with literate smart people that write well. I mean that. My simple response to this ... too bad the crusades failed.

 

[Oregonhunter5]

Our history as a nation was built upon power, strength, money, dreams, goals, freedom.
The first 3, over shadowed the last 3 when it comes to the Indians.
But I will,add the Indians goals were simple. At times brutal.

 

[dobeman]

Our history as a nation was built upon power, strength, money, dreams, goals, freedom.
The first 3, over shadowed the last 3 when it comes to the Indians.
But I will,add the Indians goals were simple. At times brutal.

I'm a history buff wannabe... as I get older I like to read as much as I can about American history, albeit on the internet. Was reading about the US policy towards indiginous people's (aka the indians) and Andrew Jackson's assessment - kind of sobering I thought. To poorly paraphrase, it was along the line of what would people look back on more favorably, a vast expanse of plains and woods with a few thousand savages, or, millions of happy people wanting to expand. Like, it was divine right that white man take the land. It is what it is, but it is interesting historical perspective.

 

[mjbskwim]

Like, it was divine right that white man take the land.

As far as I have read this is exactly what the settlers thought. Remember,the royalty at the time, thought anyone not like them was lower than dirt.The Scots were a good example.
So non whites were pretty much like dogs or less.I suppose the settlers didn't really believe they indigenous folk had any right to the land anyway

 

[PaulB47]

"They were waring and killing each other way before we got here."

Certainly, but that is not your original claim. We certainly DID kill them more than they were killing each other (even though most of that was probably unintended, via germs). Again, the population numbers are the proof. Oh, and it's "warring".

 

[Member 5605]

That's not accurate Garg.
Invasions involve extensive military personnel and battle plans from the beginning.
By definition the pilgrims were refugees, attempting to avoid religious persecution as well as subjective and unreasonable prosecution and subsequent imprisonment by the forces and capricious laws of King George.

Muslims are invading Europe and other nations. They are using the invasion of reproducing like rabbits as their method.

Invasions aren't always with wars.

 

[bakersman345]

Most of this is BS.
There isn't a utopian piece of land anywhere in this world that has not lived, or is living now through some sort of horrific oppression since life began on this earth. To manipulate, coerce, control or otherwise influence anyone because of anything that has happened before you were born and outside of your control is ludicrous.
Ethics, morals and life in general are constantly evolving, (not always for the good)
While we must learn from the past, I refuse to accept the premise I am in any way culpable for past transgressions of anyone.
I place no value on, and find no merit as a human, for those who would judge or control me by the actions of others in the past, for they either have ulterior, sinister or unkindly motives, or are unthinking minions.

Less then 5% of living Americans family's are from before the civil war and 90% of native Americans were dead before we ever became a country primarily through disease that was unintentionally spread (at first) so stop blaming the white American male. my family came here from other countrys and had to do there best. They didn't speak the language, the didn't know the customs, they were robbed, they worked hard, and did their best to become Americans. They refused to be a victim and raised all American children. #GET OVER IT