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Obligatory note, this is a crosspost here and at M4C.

I've been distilling some of the thoughts we've had here into a rebuttal for some of the Fuddcuck pretenders among the conservatives at RedState, and since I'm trying to distill this community's collective thoughts into a "with one voice This Is The Gun Community's Counteroffer" I thought I'd ask you guys to help me refine it, pile on clawbacks from the decades of uncontested acquiescence to Grabberfascist demands and generally better let the thoughts of this community flow through my fingers and into the keyboard.

---begin draft---
For too long, the Gun Grabbers have been playing, as Lawdog would call it, the "gimme half your cake today, then I'll come back and demand half of what's left tomorrow, then repeat ad infinitum" con game, and we in the arms community are sick and tired of it. We're sick of this, we're sick of them, and we're sick of all you Fuddtard Kapos, Virtue-Signaling cucks, and Vichy Republican sissies-in-dresses and your Failure Theater games where you pretend to fight for policies we want then secretly scuttle them in Committee. We're done with that game, and we're done with you--if you want us to give on UBC's and Red Flags, there better be safeguards WE deem acceptable on both, and we better be GETTING something tangible in return. So here's our "Take This Deal or Go Take A Fat Cock Up Your Arse and Die of AIDS" counter-offer...

On Universal Background Checks: We demand the 4473 be greatly simplified to prevent "backdoor registration". Name, address, DL #, optional space for SSN/UPIN. No firearm data collected. No waiting periods except in Delay or appealing Deny--iron goes home immediately upon a Proceed. Alternately, to ease the process we would also accept a 1-800 number or mobile app where anyone can call in a check, again collecting transferee data only and not anything that could create a "back-door registry"; alternately go with a Livescan-based BGC idea like this proposal by M4C member "rero360":
"A thought that just crossed my mind. The left is always clamoring on about UBCs, Would couldn't a LiveScan be sufficient? It's been about a decade since I had one done, but LiveScans are used for a ton of different things, job applications being one of them. Why couldn't it be where you go and get a LiveScan done, you bring the printout to the LGS that says you're gtg, or a printout that has a code and phone number that they LGS calls and they are told that you're gtg, that way the Gov doesn't know if you're getting the LiveScan done for a job, a gun, or some other reason. I don't know the limitations of the system but this idea just popped into my head.

I've done a few FTF sales when and where it was legal, and I honestly prefer it, no paper trail at all, but if the UBC must be implemented, why not use a system already in place being used for multiple things so as not to be a back door registration?"
Better yet, plug gunshops into the Livescan system and let them be authorized "service providers" for both gun and carry-creds BGC's at a nominal fee to the customer.

On "Red Flag" Laws: Crenshaw pays a good lip-service game, but there are things in his list of conditions that need to be tightened down. VIPR337 at M4C compiled this list of "Crenshaw Conditions," my amendments and quantifications in bold.
* Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.
* Ex parte hearings only when there is proof of necessity.
* Proof by clear and convincing evidence, which has been corroborated.
* Guarantees of all due process rights, including cross-examination and right to counsel.
* Court-appointed counsel if the respondent so wishes.
* A civil and criminal remedy for victims of false and malicious petitions. False red-flag filers REQUIRED to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law on Federal "deprivation of rights under color of law", ZERO prosecutorial discretion.
* Safe and orderly procedures for relinquishment of firearms. ^Relinquished weapons to be kept in double-locked cases with one key retained by the owner and ONLY opened under owner supervision.^
* <strike>Strict controls on</strike> Prohibition of no-knock raids.
* Storage of relinquished firearms by responsible third parties.
* Prompt 2-3 business days restoration of concealed carry permits for the falsely accused.
* Prompt 2-3 business days return of firearms upon the termination of an order.
* Renewal of orders based on presentation of clear and convincing proof.
* Not allowing time-limited orders to be bootstrapped into lifetime federal prohibition.


In return for this, we require:
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, [EDIT: with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.]
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Most of all: NATIONWIDE CARRY or No Deal.

That's the deal, either Take It or Go Take It Up The Wrong 'Un, which I'm not convinced that Vichycon Sissycucks don't regularly enjoy anyway.
---end draft---

There it is, folks, please help me to "suck less" and be a more effective advocate for our cause.
 
Second draft humbly submitted for the community's consideration...

-----begin draft-----
You lite-beer Vichy Republican Quislings say you want to "have a conversation" about guns. Well, you've played the "I'll pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today" card one time too many without making good on any of your IOU's ever, and always demanded we "take one for the team" without the team ever doing anything for US, and we're sick of it. We're sick of the Failure Theater, we're sick of the under-the-radar collaboration with Gun Grabbers, and we're sick of YOU, which is why we shoved the Giant Orange Dick up your a** without courtesy of lube, just the same as you've shoved so much up ours.

You want to "talk" about Red Flags and Background Checks. Well, this time it's YOUR turn to make the "gesture of good faith" up front. Pick one item from the following list, any ONE, and get it signed into law, and then we'll talk; until then go f*** yourselves right up the a** and die of AIDS.

We require any one of these as an "earnest money" down payment:
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.

Pick one of those, any one of them, and get it done, and then we'll have a conversation. We have our own requirements on UBC's and ERPO's, and we require some things in return as well... "compromise" means "give and take," which means we have to GET something rather than "give us X and we'll let you keep Y until we come back tomorrow to demand you give us Y for letting you keep Z" as you've always done. We're woke to that horses***, and we're done with letting you run that scam on us.

WHEN the time for that conversation comes, our terms will be something like these...

UBC's - We demand the 4473 be greatly simplified to prevent "backdoor registration". Name, address, DL #, optional space for SSN/UPIN. No firearm data collected. No waiting periods except in Delay or appealing Deny--iron goes home immediately upon a Proceed. To ease the process we would also accept a 1-800 number or mobile app where anyone can call in a check, again collecting transferee data only and not anything that could create a "back-door registry"; alternately go with a Livescan-based BGC idea like this proposal by M4C member "rero360":
"A thought that just crossed my mind. The left is always clamoring on about UBCs, Would couldn't a LiveScan be sufficient? It's been about a decade since I had one done, but LiveScans are used for a ton of different things, job applications being one of them. Why couldn't it be where you go and get a LiveScan done, you bring the printout to the LGS that says you're gtg, or a printout that has a code and phone number that they LGS calls and they are told that you're gtg, that way the Gov doesn't know if you're getting the LiveScan done for a job, a gun, or some other reason. I don't know the limitations of the system but this idea just popped into my head.
I've done a few FTF sales when and where it was legal, and I honestly prefer it, no paper trail at all, but if the UBC must be implemented, why not use a system already in place being used for multiple things so as not to be a back door registration?"
Better yet, plug gunshops into the Livescan system and let them be authorized "service providers" for both gun and carry-creds BGC's at a nominal fee to the customer. No matter what, NO registration of any kind nor any collection of information that could even conceivably be used to create a registry.

Red Flag - Crenshaw pays a good lip-service game, but there are things in his list of conditions that need to be tightened down.
* Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.
* Ex parte hearings only when there is proof of necessity.
* Proof beyond reasonable doubt.
* Guarantees of all due process rights, including cross-examination and right to counsel.
* Court-appointed counsel if the respondent so wishes.
* A civil and criminal remedy for victims of false and malicious petitions. False red-flag filers REQUIRED to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law on Federal "deprivation of rights under color of law", ZERO prosecutorial discretion.
* Safe and orderly procedures for relinquishment of firearms. ^Relinquished weapons to be kept in double-locked cases with one key retained by the owner and ONLY opened under owner supervision.^
* Prohibition of no-knock raids.
* Storage of relinquished firearms by responsible third parties.
* Prompt 2-3 business days restoration of concealed carry permits for the falsely accused.
* Prompt 2-3 business days return of firearms upon the termination of an order.
* Renewal of orders based on presentation of clear and convincing proof.
* Not allowing time-limited orders to be bootstrapped into lifetime federal prohibition.

And what we get in return? In return for allowing you both of your coveted prizes above, we demand ALL of the following as our "take" in "give and take":
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.

You've had your way with us for most of the past hundred years. Now it's time for you to start making it up to us, or the lot of you can all go to Hell and take your scumbag Demoproggie pals with you.
 
They will not care about our counter proposal unless a ton of other people share the attitude. I posted something to try to help spread a better message here:


When you need a ton of pressure, it helps to have 2000 people each exerting a pound. If you are down to 10 people, now each has to exert 200 pounds.

Spread the word. Post corrections on every news paper website you can join. ALWAYS BE RIGHT, and ALWAYS BE POLITE.
 
I agree with you in principle, but when you have no leverage to support your demands, it falls flat. What are you going to do if they don't change the 4473? Not buy anything else? Win for them. So why would they give anything up for us? They won't.

As you correctly pointed out above, their only 'compromise' is limiting their reach at each bite at our apples...and not because they want to, but they know they have to do it incrementally...conditioning people, introducing just an idea, letting it develop/germinate/stew, testing the waters and then cramming it down folks' throats when the time is right.:oops: They're playing the long game...probably a 10-20 year plan, exploiting any/every tragedy along the way.

But as posted previously, we need to start getting pro2A legislation introduced so they have to devote some of their time/$/resources to respond to so they can't be 100% offensive all the time and we're the punching bag. How about an 'enhanced' CPL? As it stand now, keep the basic 'shall issue.' But if you go through additional training, expanded areas where you could legally carry? Or additional legal protections - law abiding gun owners insurance (like USCCA) not being hindered. Or how about something prohibiting outlawing what is already legally yours...legal yesterday, legal tomorrow, legal always? That in particular would seem to be able to get support behind, particularly from the moderates/middle crowd. If you legally obtained something, it can never be outlawed/seized (unless you of course did something to become a legit felon--drug dealer, murderer, etc ). Guns, cars, computers, whatever... or if they try to seize it, they have to redeem 100X the actual purchase price/value, in cash, and it can't be limited to the first X number of persons involved?

As to spreading the word...with social and regular media, we should able to reach a lot more folks. But the vilification/smearing of being a law abiding gun owners keeps many from sharing/forwarding over concern of the backlash/repercussions. With FB, twitter, etc. every pro2A should reach millions if people liked/shared, but they don't. And many just think 'if I keep my mouth shut/head down, they'll leave me alone.' We saw that, or just plain old apathy, a fair amount from many gun shops and ranges with 1639...putting the bumper stickers on the counter was about as far as some would go. The word gets spread all over this state...what is missing is unity + the unwillingness to legally act and participate in the democratic process...writing their legislators, newspapers, etc, despite tools out there that make it very, very easy to do so (thru NRA Firearms Policy Coalition websites etc). If 50-100K peaceful, law abiding gun owners attended demonstrations, it would be a bit different picture.

~1.25 Million Washington's voted NO on 1639...imagine if just 1/4 of them attended a demonstration? Imagine if they all $20 donated to a solid conservative candidates, like Rep. Furtunato for Governor?

While many claim things like 'TV/newspapers are dead,' they may not be quite what they used to be...but there's still lots of folks watch the news, etc. Some well placed TV ads would still reach a good number of folks IMHO...but yeah, that's big $$.:(

But as history tells us, 95%+ will abstain/sit on the fence hoping 'somebody' else will win the day for them. As posted before, throwing a $20 donation to the NRA ain't gonna cut it anymore...

Long story short, keep at it...email your legislators, write the papers, share with your shooting buddies, visit/email your local gun shops, ranges matches and keep educating and informing.

Do more than just vent here.

Boss
 
Some interesting thoughts and proposals ...but the name calling adds nothing to the message and makes me not want to read any further.
Andy

Agreed (hence my 'in principle' intro)...impolite/profanity = 'DELETE' *click* or worse, shows one to be rude/unhinged and exploited/used against you/us.

Boss
 
On "Red Flag" Laws: Crenshaw pays a good lip-service game, but there are things in his list of conditions that need to be tightened down. VIPR337 at M4C compiled this list of "Crenshaw Conditions," my amendments and quantifications in bold.
* Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.

So, the government (cops) can ask the government (judge) if they (cops) can have permission to take your guns, without any other input? Hard no and a non starter.
 

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