Defensive Arts
Advertise on Northwest Firearms
Buster Beaver Cerakote
J&B Firearm Sales
HighLine Firearms
Sporting Systems
Simply Triggers
Low Price Guns
Southwest Firearms
Oregon Rifleworks
Gun Deals
Messages
4,347
Reactions
3,150
Disagree. Many sociopaths are not in jail (but at the top of companies!) while many normally functioning people are in jail. Let's assume for a sec that this kid is actually quite savvy and motivated and not sociopathic. He goes to jail and is lucky to come out before he's 30. If he's still savvy and motivated, the felony will keep him from getting anything more than a minimum wage job - he's got no hope of ever owning more than a 20 year old beater car, a house, an apartment that's not a slum, supporting a family, etc. The deck is stacked against him. So, what do you think said motivated and savvy man is going to do to propel himself through life?
i dont think we disagree, just emphasizing different points.

on your points above - thats also a huge factor. one im personally quite familiar with. when you brand a man, take everything from him and put a massive handicap on how he can provide for himself, dudes really got no choice but to live by the gun. its bubblegumin absurd what our criminal justice system does to people.

to build on your point, for the sake of others: most people have no idea how massive of a disadvantage convicts face. you get out of jail and have absolutely nothing: if you had a job, its long gone. if you had a home, its long gone. if you had a car, you dont anymore. you cant get a job better than minimum wage, cant rent the vast majority of apartments, you are absolutely penniless. and you cant even get food stamps, cant get welfare, typically cant even leave the state youre in if you have any kind of post release supervision.

what the FAP do you expect a guy to do to put food in his stomach and a roof over his head? in that position, you honestly have little choice but to stick with what you know and hopefully not get popped again for a little while

some people have the benefit of familial resources... if you can live on your moms couch and eat her food, cool.. lotta people aint got no mom to crash with
 
Messages
425
Reactions
1,015
This is just sad to hear about. I'm sure the kid just figured that this was a cooler/easier way of making money than robbing or selling drugs.

Instead his sisters dead, he got robbed and his future will include jail time.

It's like they say "if you lay with dogs, dont bubblegum if you get fleas".
 
Messages
12,271
Reactions
21,844
What's a shame is that he clearly had the drive and the skills to succeed as some sort of entrepreneur
I have never built a 'ghost gun' (or 80%) but from the few I know who who have it didn't take much in the way of tools OR skills - knowing what I do of these people.

The following from the story pretty much offers a clear picture of what this kids 'drive and skills' were directed to:

Two people had come to the family's home in Douglasville, about 20 miles west of Atlanta, on November 27 to purchase a gun that the 13-year-old made, But instead of buying the firearm, the pair stole the gun from the 13-year-old and fled the scene, the sheriff told reporters. The boy then shot at them as they were leaving,

And, once again, where were the parents and what did they know?
 
Last Edited:

bbbass

Messages
14,746
Reactions
32,009
Seems to me the kid is in a word of sh*t for selling/distributing the guns...
He broke Ghost Gun Rule #1, and that is that they are not for sale or giving away... to anyone... ever.
Yes to the first sentence.

No to the second.

I hate to disagree, but it's no diff (under Fed law) than making any kind of firearm that can be legally made. (Except BP guns may be exempt from all... IDK)

One is allowed to make a firearm, for one's own use, and LATER give it away or sell it. As long as one is not in the BUSINESS of manufacturing or has crossed the line into manufacturing by making and dist too many. IIRC it's kind of fuzzy territory.

Some years ago, I gave my 30something daughter in Arkansas an AR built from a Polymer80 lower kit. (I know, I know.) I researched it prior to doing so. Looked up all the 1934/1968 rules regarding "manufacturing" and whatever other rules I cold find. I shipped the gun to her FFL after serializing it so that the FFL would have something to put on his form. However, when he, the FFL, opened the box, he freaked out and called the ATF. They told him there was nothing in the Federal laws against it and he should grow a pair, errrr, get educated on 80% lowers and the rules for transferring them.

Now, that's not to say that some states allow it... IIRC didn't WA state make it illegal to transfer a completed 80% lower or some such. ( I can't keep up with that chit!)

Polymer80 itself is doing CYA on this subject. They won't even ship to some states, WA included.

:D
 
Messages
225
Reactions
628
Brownells' ad "Your AR Build MADE EASY"appeared on the right side of my screen just as I read that last post. "Step-by-step videos on building your own AF-15 rifle!" I didn't watch the video, so I dunno . . . maybe somewhere in the vid, there's a warning or caution against transferring that work of ARt to anyone else.
 
Yes to the first sentence.

No to the second.

I hate to disagree, but it's no diff (under Fed law) than making any kind of firearm that can be legally made. (Except BP guns may be exempt from all... IDK)

One is allowed to make a firearm, for one's own use, and LATER give it away or sell it. As long as one is not in the BUSINESS of manufacturing or has crossed the line into manufacturing by making and dist too many. IIRC it's kind of fuzzy territory.

Some years ago, I gave my 30something daughter in Arkansas an AR built from a Polymer80 lower kit. (I know, I know.) I researched it prior to doing so. Looked up all the 1934/1968 rules regarding "manufacturing" and whatever other rules I cold find. I shipped the gun to her FFL after serializing it so that the FFL would have something to put on his form. However, when he, the FFL, opened the box, he freaked out and called the ATF. They told him there was nothing in the Federal laws against it and he should grow a pair, errrr, get educated on 80% lowers and the rules for transferring them.

Now, that's not to say that some states allow it... IIRC didn't WA state make it illegal to transfer a completed 80% lower or some such. ( I can't keep up with that chit!)

Polymer80 itself is doing CYA on this subject. They won't even ship to some states, WA included.

:D
As I read the regulations on ghost guns (80%'ers), they can only be legally possessed by the person who made them.
If one later decides to sell or give away a ghost gun that one made, then it must become serialized prior to the transfer.
After serialization, it is no longer a ghost gun. It's got a serial number now, and firearm transfer laws now apply.

What you did with your Poly80 AR was you serialized a (former) ghost gun. Once you serialized it, it was no longer classified as a ghost gun.
Your FFL freaked out for no reason. But the point to be made here is once you added a serial number, the gun was no longer a ghost gun.
So, my original statement with which you took umbrage (...that is that they are not for sale or giving away... to anyone... ever) is still valid.

And yes, it is now not only illegal to transfer a firearm made from an 80% lower without serialization (as it always was), but now you can't even buy 80% lowers here in WA anymore. I forget the number of the bill that did it, but it was within the past couple years or less. You're in La Grande, so your state may still allow the purchase and assembly of 80%'ers. We here in WA have been denied that inalienable right, along with so many others...
 
Last Edited:
Messages
12,271
Reactions
21,844
Brownells' ad "Your AR Build MADE EASY"appeared on the right side of my screen just as I read that last post. "Step-by-step videos on building your own AF-15 rifle!" I didn't watch the video, so I dunno . . . maybe somewhere in the vid, there's a warning or caution against transferring that work of ARt to anyone else.
I saw that as well but it appears the vid is describing a conventional build with a completed & serialized legally transferred lower receiver.

I am 'assuming' (as it wasn't mentioned) that this was a handgun he 'built' but maybe it was specified in another article.
 

bbbass

Messages
14,746
Reactions
32,009
As I read the regulations on ghost guns (80%'ers), they can only be legally possessed by the person who made them.
If one later decides to sell or give away a ghost gun that one made, then it must become serialized prior to the transfer.
After serialization, it is no longer a ghost gun. It's got a serial number now, and firearm transfer laws now apply.

What you did with your Poly80 AR was you serialized a (former) ghost gun. Once you serialized it, it was no longer classified as a ghost gun.
Your FFL freaked out for no reason. But the point to be made here is once you added a serial number, the gun was no longer a ghost gun.
So, my original statement with which you took umbrage (...that is that they are not for sale or giving away... to anyone... ever) is still valid.

And yes, it is now not only illegal to transfer a firearm made from an 80% lower without serialization (as it always was), but now you can't even buy 80% lowers here in WA anymore. I forget the number of the bill that did it, but it was within the past couple years or less. You're in La Grande, so your state may still allow the purchase and assembly of 80%'ers. We here in WA have been denied that inalienable right, along with so many others...
Yeah IIRC at the time that I did the transfer, no serialization was required. I looked into it extensively. If anything now says diff, (esp lame-o ATF) IMO it has changed or been clarified. At the time, I did NOT have to serialize it, but since I was sending it interstate, and to an FFL, I wanted to do so.

Also, tho technically it may no longer be a ghost gun, there is no record of the made up serial number ANYWHERE. So, meh.

BTW, so disagreeing with you is now "taking umbrage". Oy vey.
 
BTW, so disagreeing with you is now "taking umbrage". Oy vey.
Surely you should know by now, and you in particular given our past discourse, my use of that particular lexicon was not meant to offend.
I just had a strong yen to use that phrase in a sentence today. Oi... :D
 

bbbass

Messages
14,746
Reactions
32,009
Surely you know by now, with you in particular given our past discourse, my use of that particular lexicon was not meant to offend.
I just had a strong yen to use that phrase in a sentence today. Oi... :D
I'm still looking for the specific regs that say a completed 80% gun can only be possessed by the builder and must be serialized when sold or transferred. Jeez, there is a lot of crap to wade thru!!! I hated it last time, and I hate it today...
 
Jeez, there is a lot of crap to wade thru!!! I hated it last time, and I hate it today...
Then just trust in me...

Kaa.jpg

:)
 

bbbass

Messages
14,746
Reactions
32,009
Then just trust in me...

View attachment 1082697

:)
Well, I won't do that. :p;):D

I musta had a relative from Missoura or sumptin. Gotta see everthin for meself.

But I AM tired of searching. I'm done.

Let me just say that because the ATF puts it on their website, don't make it so. I want them to show me in the GCA or other fed law/reg that is behind some of their bold pronouncments/rulings. And as usual, they are as vague as possible there.
 
Messages
4,347
Reactions
3,150
Simple way to avoid a murder rap in cases like this is DON'T COMMIT CRIMES!.
It really is as simple as that. The thief precipitated the whole mess by stealing in the 1st place
Both can swing as far as I'm concerned.
a 13 year old? bro..
 

GWS

Messages
10,103
Reactions
39,279
a 13 year old? bro..
How many people do you think were shot or robbed at gunpoint by guns this kid sold?

What impact do you think this kid's actions will have on our rights?
Do you think this kid's sister would still be alive if he had not chosen to engage in an illegal activity?
Is his sister less dead because he's a kid?
 
Messages
8,606
Reactions
21,726
I get all that, but I find it hard to believe that a 13 year old sauntered into the local gun store and walked out with gun parts. I also find it hard to believe a 13 year old was ordering and paying for parts to be shipped to his home. It may just be that I'm old and out of touch, but it would seem to me that, at the very least, his parents would have noticed something amiss.
Sir, you are making the assumpment here that he has 'parent's - plural.
 
he's a child.
Yes, he is, but one that F'ed up in so many ways.

My interpretation of "both can swing" is both can sit in a jail for a long time. The thief? He's probably too old to be "fixed". The 13 yr old may stand a chance of being rehabilitated if the first 13 years weren't all that influentially bad.
Any bets that there's no father in the house?
Any bets that Mom knew and assisted?
 
Advertise on Northwest Firearms
Cerberus Training Group
Copeland Custom Gunworks
Let Freedom Ring
Sporting Systems
Southwest Firearms

Upcoming Events

Oregon Arms Collectors January Gun Show
Portland, OR
Wes Knodel Gun Shows
Chehalis, WA
Wes Knodel Gun Shows
Redmond, OR

Latest Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Top