9mm bullets too long COAL

[Mikej]

View attachment 696442View attachment 696443View attachment 696444
Top image at recommended COAL. When "plunked" in feels sticky to remove (note, all of these dummy rounds fit in a case gauge and were measured to my standard size at case mouth, taper crimpped on same die).
Middle image...almost there but still slightly above hood and no plunk, feels like gripping still.
Bottom...like a round should be, flush with hood, falls free and plunks in.

I think, if it were me, I'd see if I could unload those long arsed bullets. those things look kind of spooky to me. I feel like I'M on the edge with my 1.070 loading. There are people here that have WAY more experience than me though, and I would defer to them. I guess if there were no pressure signs?

I'll add, your case gauge just tells you the case will fit the chamber. Nothing to do with the bullet. All 9mm chambers across all gun manufacturers are supposed to be the same. Where the lands start in the barrels? Not so much.

 

[DLS]

Not all case guages simulate the leade or rifled portions of the barrel. They simply measure the case itself.

Even those that do will not exactly match your barrel profile unless machines with the same reamer as bench rest shooters often have done at the time of fitting a new barrel.

So, your barrel is always the final arbitrator as it whether your reloads are properly dimensioned.

 

[oremike]

Yes you do need to be careful, and aware. I'd say you are on the right path.

 

[oremike]

Bullet profiles are an odd thing, the case length plus the part of the bullet that sticks out is what they measure as OAL. That will generally tell you if they will fit in the magazine. But where the bullet transitions from the olgive to the bearing surface it controls the seating depth. There is no one size fits all. In flipping open my Western Powders reloading book, I see for bullets weighing 124-125 grains there are OAL's that range from 1.145 to 1.035. Yes .11" difference so your .08" is with in that realm. Using the same powder so I'm comparing apples to apples, the long seated bullets have a max load of 6.5grs and the short seated have a max load of 5.3grs. I would look for data that uses the same weight of bullet and seating depth and go from there.

 

[Mikej]

Bullet profiles are an odd thing, the case length plus the part of the bullet that sticks out is what they measure as OAL. That will generally tell you if they will fit in the magazine. But where the bullet transitions from the olgive to the bearing surface it controls the seating depth. There is no one size fits all. In flipping open my Western Powders reloading book, I see for bullets weighing 124-125 grains there are OAL's that range from 1.145 to 1.035. Yes .11" difference so your .08" is with in that realm. Using the same powder so I'm comparing apples to apples, the long seated bullets have a max load of 6.5grs and the short seated have a max load of 5.3grs. I would look for data that uses the same weight of bullet and seating depth and go from there.

This ^ is good coming from you. I tend to believe you have just a bit more experience than I do.

We were at Johnson Creek GC one time and a gentleman was at an end lane by the door. We were prepping to leave and I noticed what seemed like some real loud reports from the guy's gun. I bent over and pick up a couple of the guys shells that went near my feet and checked them out. They looked really old/tarnished. And the primers were FLAT. I said "Excuse Me" and pointed out the primers to him and suggested he was maybe going to hurt something/somebody. He didn't care, and went on shooting. WE scooted right on out of there.

 

[DizzyJ]

This is why I no longer use the beretta 92 as a case gauge for my other 9mm pistols. It will feed EVERYTHING!

Learned this the hard way several years back when the beretta fired the cartridges fine, but not the Glock or smith or Walther.

 

[WillametteWill]

Thanks to all above. So I called Berry's and they advised that the lengths listed on the website are maximum they recommend. They did advise their technical person was out until next week and I could call back then, which I will do. They seem willing to help which is nice.

Been reloading metallic cartridges for about 35 years and this is the first time I've had any issues like this. I've always thought of listed COAL's as minimum due to increased pressure if they are seated too deeply. Any jacketed bullets in a similar configuration have not been an issue keeping at COAL spec. This is my first foray into plated bullets that are not round nosed for autoloaders. I've loaded some lead truncated cones often in the past but "nose" always seemed much longer than on these bullets.

From the beginning, I've had a high level of confidence that the issue is with the bullets hitting the rifling, not with case fit in the chamber. Had chambering issues before and have always been able to identify this pretty clearly. What this little experiment has done for me is make me a bit leery using bullets like this (long bearing surface, short cone) from companies that do not have a reloading manual with specific info. Their site advises you can use recipes, "Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used..." It does go on to state max velocities, same bullet weight etc. (all reasonable data). But if you look at most any manual, there is often a noticeable difference in powder charges between jacketed and lead bullets.

 

[WillametteWill]

And for the 147gr plated Berry's project...

For the 147gr FP, Berry's website shows 1.130". Looking at other manuals:
Hornady FMJ BT - 1.165
" XTP - 1.100
Speer GDHP - 1.130
" TMJ FN - 1.130
Lyman lead #356637 truncated cone - 1.058
Lyman TMJ FP - 1.115
Western powder does not list lenghts
Lee manual copper plated (describes Berry's) 1.160
" jacket - 1.130
" lead - 1.145 - 1.169

My current loads with Berry's 147gr FP is 1.100" and is still way too long. Based on the above other sources, for me, don't see trying to make these work is in the cards for me. I'll write that $25 off as a learning experience. Nothing against Berry's, just not in my comfort level. I still need a right hand to support my family.

 

[Mikej]

And for the 147gr plated Berry's project...

For the 147gr FP, Berry's website shows 1.130". Looking at other manuals:
Hornady FMJ BT - 1.165
" XTP - 1.100
Speer GDHP - 1.130
" TMJ FN - 1.130
Lyman lead #356637 truncated cone - 1.058
Lyman TMJ FP - 1.115
Western powder does not list lenghts
Lee manual copper plated (describes Berry's) 1.160
" jacket - 1.130
" lead - 1.145 - 1.169

My current loads with Berry's 147gr FP is 1.100" and is still way too long. Based on the above other sources, for me, don't see trying to make these work is in the cards for me. I'll write that $25 off as a learning experience. Nothing against Berry's, just not in my comfort level. I still need a right hand to support my family.

Something that needs to be kept in mind when reading all loading data. These companies aren't telling you what, or how much, to use. They're simply are telling you what THEY used! And the pressures and velocities that resulted from the components and powder they put together. It's up to us to understand what's going on in those cartridges and if we are going adjust loads outside the loads in the book we need to consider what the results will be.

If you've been loading for 35 years! You must have plenty of understanding on the way this stuff works!

 

[WillametteWill]

If you've been loading for 35 years! You must have plenty of understanding on the way this stuff works!

Ohhhh but still learning (from all of you!!!) I was never (knowingly) reckless when I was younger and reloading, but as I age, definitely becoming even more cautious. Wife and kids are now shooting the stuff I load. These two bullets just seemed to throw me out of my comfort zone (which has been a wonderful learning journey). In 35 years I still have a fraction of experience of many here because I've never been a high volume loader or really pushed the envelope.

Thanks to your suggestions, I just had a large, heavy box from Montana Gold delivered about 10 minutes ago!

 

[Mikej]

Ohhhh but still learning (from all of you!!!) I was never (knowingly) reckless when I was younger and reloading, but as I age, definitely becoming even more cautious. Wife and kids are now shooting the stuff I load. These two bullets just seemed to throw me out of my comfort zone (which has been a wonderful learning journey). In 35 years I still have a fraction of experience of many here because I've never been a high volume loader or really pushed the envelope.

Thanks to your suggestions, I just had a large, heavy box from Montana Gold delivered about 10 minutes ago!

I kind of questioned you using, for #1 147 gr bullets in 9mm. For myself now, I consider the heavy bullet for self defense, or hunting. Heavy bullet = more recoil and more wear and tear on the gun, and giving you seating depth issues. #2, plated bullets may be a problem loaded to smokin' velocities. Those are just my thoughts and I know there are probably folks out there that totally different opinions on that, and that's fine. I'm just adding different thoughts on the subject.

Those Montana Gold are all I've ever loaded in 9mm. Generaly 115 gr HPs, but I also have 124 gr HPs.

 

[RVTECH]

The ogive might be different in the case of a bullet vs. another.

This is exactly it and I have experienced it many times and here is a recent example.

I bought a couple boxes of HSM 158 gr PRNFP bullets for use in my .38s, .357s and Henry rifle.

Because I now use a collet crimp die I prefer to crimp on the 'flat' of the bullet instead of the cannelure (not that it makes a difference I am sure) but my first round I seated and crimped just below the cannelure and checked it in my Henry and it doesn't quite chamber. Seated and crimped a bit lower in the cannelure and it chambers just fine.

 

[Mikej]

This is exactly it and I have experienced it many times and here is a recent example.

I bought a couple boxes of HSM 158 gr PRNFP bullets for use in my .38s, .357s and Henry rifle.

Because I now use a collet crimp die I prefer to crimp on the 'flat' of the bullet instead of the cannelure (not that it makes a difference I am sure) but my first round I seated and crimped just below the cannelure and checked it in my Henry and it doesn't quite chamber. Seated and crimped a bit lower in the cannelure and it chambers just fine.

View attachment 696643

That's a big fat tall bullet too! At least now you know you don't have an excessive jump to the lands for that bullet.

 

[RVTECH]

At least now you know you don't have an excessive jump to the lands for that bullet.

That's for sure!

Even seated in the cannelure I am sure it ain't clearing the lands by much!

 

[WillametteWill]

I kind of questioned you using, for #1 147 gr bullets in 9mm.

I have no idea what I was thinking honestly I NEVER shoot 147's, Maybe it was like I was reaching for the 2% milk and picked up the half and half. Have a friend who loves them but I've shot maybe two boxes in my life of them. So yea, back to my safe space of 115's and 124's!

 

[Mikej]

That's for sure!

Even seated in the cannelure I am sure it ain't clearing the lands by much!

Isn't that what we're supposed to be going for? Minimal jump? I'm still learning too. I don't imagine it makes a huge difference in a lever gun though. Weather your .030" off the lands or .005". (shrug)

 

[DizzyJ]

I have no idea what I was thinking honestly I NEVER shoot 147's, Maybe it was like I was reaching for the 2% milk and picked up the half and half. Have a friend who loves them but I've shot maybe two boxes in my life of them. So yea, back to my safe space of 115's and 124's!

147s actually have more of a "push" and less of a "kick" in the 9mm.

 

[RVTECH]

Isn't that what we're supposed to be going for? Minimal jump?

Yep - typically when I load for non-lever rifles I will put a bullet into a fired case, gently chamber it, remove and measure OAL and then seat approx 3 thou deeper.

In some calibers this cannot be done - such as loading 100 - 110 grain bullets in .30-30 winchester as they are too short so I just seat them as 'long' as possible and live with it.

As you said it doesn't seem to make a difference in the lever guns as they all shoot very accurately regardless.

 

[WillametteWill]

Okay, I'll end my side of with this.

Shot a ladder of rounds with the 121 gr at the shorter length. All functioned fine, no pressure signs, the low powder rounds did not eject far (as expected) and the highest loads were the same as what I've been using for 124 gr plated RN. The top end was not a very hot load at all. So I'll load these when I finish my current batch and shoot away.

 

[Oneeyedjack]

Be careful with 9's, 9mm loaded .010 to deep can double the working pressure of some loads due to the compression of powder. Your issue may be more to do with your weapon and the bullet design. Beware!