I have carried a .40 cal since the early 90s. Before that it was a .45 acp. I don’t really have a lot of experience with the 9 mm. My wife has gotten into shooting and I got her a Glock 19. When we practice we shoot 115 grain fmj. When she carries it’s a 124 grain jhp. With the scarcity of ammo still out there I was wondering would the gun shoot any differently using 147 grain jhp when we can’t find 124 grain? Also what is the primary use for 147 grain jhp, is it for self defense. Thanks.
Also I've been pretty happy with this stuff. Pretty decent for the price and its fairly available. Mine is 115gr. Just slightly annoying with the little media polishing bits in the cavity. But for decent hollow point its decent and cheap.
I got mine for 1k for like $200-$250 to the door well before the panic..
 
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Yes and then there's other factors. Like a magazine full of 147's vs 115’s will add up and might be a annoyance to her.
And a very minor argument is speed does kill speed penetrates barriers better. Its not really even a consideration I'm this argument but idk. I feel its worth mentioning.

I keep saying air marshalls use (or at least used to use) a 90gr bullet in 9mm because theres less of a chance of pass through. It counter intuitive but the faster your bullet goes the less penetration in gel, but it will punch a hole through solid material deeper. Its weird. But speed kills and causes rapid expansion.
Another small factor to consider is what are the ranges and how fast will the bullets slow down. The heavier stuff will loose less velocity compared to equal distances with 115gr. If that's important to you at all.

One way to think about it. Is a heavier bullet will be more likely to be caught in a heavy leather jacket and jeans etc. A faster bullet will "cut" through these layers better.
The 147's seem to cut through paper targets just fine.
 
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The 147's seem to cut through paper targets just fine.
They are popular with target shooters, because they help meet the power factor without the recoil increase. They are popular with suppressor shooters because they are sub sonic.
I have not seen them be really popular as SD ammo. They can't generate the speed needed to make HP bullets expand reliably without getting into the +P and +P+ range. DR
 
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They are popular with target shooters, because they help meet the power factor without the recoil increase. They are popular with suppressor shooters because they are sub sonic.
I have not seen them be really popular as SD ammo. They can't generate the speed needed to make HP bullets expand reliably without getting into the +P and +P+ range. DR
147 Grain federal HST seems to do very well in tests.
 
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I have concerns about the statements that 147 grain being unable to generate velocity to expand. 45 acp hps are able to expand and run a similar speed.
I would have thought the same. If you go to the 9mm section of their tests, it shows that 147 grain does in fact expand and penetrate rather well. I'm surprised. I believe there is more to performance that just gel tests, but not sure what is involved.

In any case, looks like most of the SD ammo they used in the tests will do the job for self defense. Of course, that's assuming you hit your target and are being attacked by a block of ballistic gel. :eek:
 

Here's a chart from that site. Love the way they present that data so its easily compared. As you can see it looks like about half of the 147gr tests they did barely expanded at all or literally not at all. I'll have to poke around on those charts more.
A little surprised how terrible critical defense did with the little plastic tips. Speed 100% matters.
If you can get a 147gr seed traveling at a good clip and can tolerate the recoil it will retain velocity better over distance..
 
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Too much speed and not enough mass can also be a problem. There are some very interesting low mass ones out of South Africa I have seen chronoed over 2000fps at the muzzle. the speed drop is astoundingly fast. I use 147 grain HST. I have seen good results. I have been tempted to try some of the lightweight .380 bullets. I have some 85 grain I think, Hollow points and I wonder if they would do alright accuracy wise and chrono them. I suspect they would be pushed too fast and have subpar terminal performance out of a 9mm luger with appropriate load.
 
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They are popular with target shooters, because they help meet the power factor without the recoil increase. They are popular with suppressor shooters because they are sub sonic.
I have not seen them be really popular as SD ammo. They can't generate the speed needed to make HP bullets expand reliably without getting into the +P and +P+ range. DR
Not according to Dr. Roberts...

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo


All three loads tested in this event offer acceptable terminal performance for LE duty use. The Federal HST, like the Winchester Ranger Talon and Speer Gold Dot, offers a bit more expansion and slightly less penetration, a possible advantage for municipal LE agencies patrolling urban or crowded suburban environments. Like Hornady Critical Duty, the Speer G2, and Winchester bonded loads penetrate a bit deeper, but have less expansion than HST and might offer an advantage for agencies with a significant number of engagements around vehicles or for rural agencies where larger animals are a potential threat.
9 mm 147 gr duty load testing
 
They are popular with target shooters, because they help meet the power factor without the recoil increase. They are popular with suppressor shooters because they are sub sonic.
I have not seen them be really popular as SD ammo. They can't generate the speed needed to make HP bullets expand reliably without getting into the +P and +P+ range. DR

I have concerns about the statements that 147 grain being unable to generate velocity to expand. 45 acp hps are able to expand and run a similar speed.
Much is based on bullet design and materials. Modern bullets are much better than ones from 20 years ago. A few weeks ago in a ballistics demonstration class I shot one of my Winchester 147 gr that was a left over duty round from about 2000. It sailed completely through 16" of gel and based on the small permanent cavity (compared with others shot in the same session) it did not appear to expand at all. Didn't capture the bullet because every other (modern) hollow point shot stopped within 16".

The fantastic info linked by @Dr Prepper in post #28 shows some interesting (and now expected with what we know) information. If you look at two 9mm rounds, one +P and the other regular, frequently the +P round will have more expansion and less penetration (bigger parachute going through the gel). It's no different than picking hunting bullets for game and matching bullet design with expected velocity based on your cartridge and distance expected for your shot (I know this kinda sounds bad, relating hunting to self-defense so in case any anti-gun people are reading this...it's the physics, not a nefarious concept).

If you look closely at modern defense bullets they have numerous subtle but visible design elements and many we cannot see like jacket thickness. Some examples from Lucky Gunners data:

Hornady 135 gr Critical Duty - non +P had about an inch more penetration
Federal 124 HST - +P and regular had exactly the same penetration
Federal 135 Hydra Shock non +P 18.1" average (similar result from my single round tested) / Federal 135 Tactical Bonded +P only 13.8 but much more expansion.

Good reading, lots of good info to glean over
 
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Not according to Dr. Roberts...

Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo


All three loads tested in this event offer acceptable terminal performance for LE duty use. The Federal HST, like the Winchester Ranger Talon and Speer Gold Dot, offers a bit more expansion and slightly less penetration, a possible advantage for municipal LE agencies patrolling urban or crowded suburban environments. Like Hornady Critical Duty, the Speer G2, and Winchester bonded loads penetrate a bit deeper, but have less expansion than HST and might offer an advantage for agencies with a significant number of engagements around vehicles or for rural agencies where larger animals are a potential threat.
9 mm 147 gr duty load testing
So whos tests do we believe? Those posted above? Those posted by Dr Prepper that only partly expanded?
My own experiance with 9mm has 147 at the heaviest of the 9mm line, and 115 at the lightest I want to use.
When I can pick up any ammo I tend to choose 124 gr with good modern bullets.
Everyone like to point out their favorite test that proved their bullet and weight is best. But find me a test where the mid range 124 gr modern bullets failed. Even at SD velocity they are not heavy recoilers. And they are not hard to find.
Remember the OP is looking for something for his wife. DR
 
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everything I have seen indicates 147 Grain HSTs are good to go. It is more than a weight thing. Also, I was under the distinct impression that 147s had more recoil than 115s in general, Not that 9mm recoil is heavy at all. I like a modern, heavy bullet for cartridge in general. and while my edc can't accept a suppressor, my carbine can.
 
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I've always thought of the 147 as a limp dick scapegoat perpetrated by the FBI after pointing their finger at the 1st gen 115gr 9mm Silvertip that actually worked perfectly back in the Miami clusterfeck.
So nope.
 
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So whos tests do we believe? Those posted above? Those posted by Dr Prepper that only partly expanded?
I've always thought of the 147 as a limp dick scapegoat perpetrated by the FBI after pointing their finger at the 1st gen 115gr 9mm Silvertip that actually worked perfectly back in the Miami clusterfeck.
So nope.
So that previous link I posted was simply low hanging fruit. I had already clicked that link someone else linked a few posts before mine and was just parrousing that site.

I have long been a fan of buffman range on YT. I typically watch more of his armor videos which are more stringent to that NIJ standards. But he also has EXTENSIVE ammo testing video. A quick search shows he has a gaggle of 147gr. Tests, I wish he did them with the standard layers of jeans to simulate clothing this can have a big impact on the expansion results.
So take these with a few grains of salt. But the results are interesting none the less.
 
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So whos tests do we believe? Those posted above? Those posted by Dr Prepper that only partly expanded?
My own experiance with 9mm has 147 at the heaviest of the 9mm line, and 115 at the lightest I want to use.
When I can pick up any ammo I tend to choose 124 gr with good modern bullets.
Everyone like to point out their favorite test that proved their bullet and weight is best. But find me a test where the mid range 124 gr modern bullets failed. Even at SD velocity they are not heavy recoilers. And they are not hard to find.
Remember the OP is looking for something for his wife. DR
Seeing as how Dr. Gary Robert's work is based on forensic evidence in the form of autopsies, I think I'll go with his "tests". Tests don't mean Jacksh!t to me, I believe in the reality of the streets. Everyone else can do as they please.
 
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Something to consider…..if you load the same round multiple times, it will set back.
If you load them in a Browning action. Other designs can be direct loaded, and those are the ones I carry or keep for the house. They last forever.

But even then, you don't need to burn through entire boxes just because you have a few rounds that have been up the pipe more than once.
 

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