7.62x54R can not kill an elk

[Sealesniper]

Seal... you're right, a 700+ yard hit with a MN isnt shabby.. And I grant you, the 7.62X54 round will do the job. Norma, Sellier & Bellot, or Privi ammo would toast an elk within the accuracy range of the rifle. And your tweaking, sporterising, and practice paid off. A lot depends on the condition of the rifle and rifling, and some of the imports havent been that nice- while others appear arsenal rebuilt...
I'd be willing to bet that that those shooters were trained snipers using sniper-dedicated rifles. Like as not they were trained by soviet spetsnaz or similar professionals, esp if they were NVA. We know what havoc the Russians wreaked upon the Nemetsky with their scoped mosins. Ive seen a couple VN duffle-bagged capture MN, none of them scoped however. Still the MN was used down and dirty in places like Spain, southern Africa, Afghanistan, RVN, China, Ostfront, Bolshevik coup and civil war...
THAT SAID, a scoped sniper rifle isnt the same (as you point out) as a run of the mill Mosin, which is what i was referring to. My Mosin shoots well enuff, but it just isnt in the same league as my Mausers and would take almost any of my Mausers over a Nagant in a heartbeat for operability and accuracy.. I know, tell that to the Germans... And the deer and elk harvested every year... Ive considered mounting a mosin PU-type scope on mine but alas I have other fish to fry first, like scoping a particular Yugo Mauser that startles me every time I take her out...Truthfully tho Ive been around Mausers of one sort or another for 60 years now and own a few, you could say that I'm "invested in the platform".
Interesting and enjoyable exchange of ideas...

Assuming the guns are in equal condition (bore excellent and the gun not abused) the Mauser are more accurate. agreed.
The old adage remains:

You want a HUNTING rifle pick a Mauser....
You want a TARGET rifle pick a Springfield....
You want a BATTLE rifle, pick an Enfield (OR a Mosin....

 

[RVTECH]

remember Jack O'Conner the "famed rifleman" and outdoor editor. What was his favorite round? He used the .270 to nail elk and mule deer.

He also used it to nail African game. The .270 is really a 7MM Mag 'lite' - and with modern powders and bullets nearly 'weighs' the same!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Doing a bad thing here and replying without reading through a ancient thread...

With any rifle for hunting it is best to:
Practice with your chosen rifle until it is second nature ...
Practice in the rain , off the bench , in the conditions that you will be in when you are hunting...
Use a appropriate bullet design...while a military FMJ bullet can kill game...it is not legal to use in many places for hunting...Some sort of controlled expanding soft or hollow point will work best for most hunting...find the load and bullet that works best with your rifle....this also takes practice...

Most caliber debates can be ended with the use of a proper load and practice...along with the idea that what works for you and how you hunt may not work for someone else.
Andy

 

[RVTECH]

With any rifle for hunting it is best to:
Practice with your chosen rifle until it is second nature ...
Practice in the rain , off the bench , in the conditions that you will be in when you are hunting...

This is a big 10-4! A half box off the bench a week before hunting season ain't gonna make it. Get out with your hunting rifle during the off season for some off-hand plinking, target and varmint shooting.

 

[DirectDrive]

Welp, the 7.62 x 54R is a poor man's cartridge.
So it might be OK for cow elk.
Would be outright disrespectful to shoot at a trophy with the Bolshevik round.

 

[bbbass]

He also used it to nail African game. The .270 is really a 7MM Mag 'lite' - and with modern powders and bullets nearly 'weighs' the same!

'Cept 7mm = .284, yes?

Your analogy would also be... a .270 is really a 30-06 'zippy'?

 

[Goosebrown]

The ballistics are not the same between the two, but they're darned close. Choose the right bullet and you'll be fine. Americans seem to have issues with caliber and always seem to go for more power when it isn't really necessary. Shot placement and bullet selection are all you need from .270 on up in a full sized cartridge.

 

[moose]

Years ago, there was a person here on NWF who claimed the same about 7mm Remington Mag.

The reception was about the same, it's plain stupid; you can kill an elephant with a 22lr., just put in the right place. Either it's a troll or the naive victim of a troll.
.

 

[tac]

NATO ammo is loaded HOT.

Not so, Sir. The opposite is true.

1. Most NATO 7.62x51 is loaded with a 150gr FMJ bullet.

2. ALL NATO 7.62x51 cases are balloon-based to offer extra material in the head of the case to resist the head being torn off by rapid extraction from machine-gun use - especially in the 4000 - 6000 rpm GE Gatling Mini-gun.

3. With this in mind, commercial .308Win has a slighty larger capacity case, and holds more powder, resulting in higher velocities for a given bullet weight, and higher pressures, too. UK Proof House test results show 7.62x51 at 20 tons per square inch, and .308 Win commercial at 21 tons per square inch.

4. SAAMI figures are -

.308 Win - Pressure Max - 62k PSI
7.62x51 NATO Service Pressure Max - 50k CUP, or 60/61k PSI

However - to sum everything up, the pressure difference between the .308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm
NATO is less than 2,000 PSI which is statistically insignificant. The same pressure variation may be
achieved by firing any rifle on a hot day and on a cold day or by changing brands of primers. It is safe to
shoot .308 Winchester in your 7.62x51 rifles (even the Ishapores) and vice versa. Handloaders should be
aware that they should reduce the amount of powder when using military 7.62 NATO cases by about 10-
12% and work up to safe pressures with corresponding velocities.

tac

 

[tac]

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell - AKA 'Karamojo' Bell shot 1,011 elephants during his career; all of them bulls apart from 28 cows. He is noted for using smaller calibre bullets rather than the heavy recoiling, larger calibre bullets that were popular with other big game hunters. Around 800 of his kills were made with Mauser 98 rifles chambered for the .275 Rigby (using the standard military 173 grain FMJ loading), which today is considered to be too small for elephants, and are no longer legal for dangerous African game; Bell preferred smaller calibers because, besides being lighter rifles to carry, they recoiled less and therefore are quicker to the second shot. Bell found that German and English military ammunition was the most reliable which also encouraged him to use the smaller calibers. His favourite rifles were a bespoke Rigby-made 7x57 with which he shot the majority of his elephants, a 'wand-like' <broken link removed> 6.5×54mm carbine, which he abandoned due to failure of the available ammunition, a Lee–Enfield sporting rifle in .303 British and Mauser rifles chambered in .318 Westley Richards. As 'the Bell Shot' involves shooting through the mass of the Elephant's skull, he insisted on using military full metal jacket bullets weighing from approx 173 to 250 grains, rather than the 400+ grain soft lead bullets popular today. He particularly praised a Mannlicher M1893 rifle chambered in 6.5×53mmR from by George Gibbs that he used for most of his meat hunting in the Karamojo. On one occasion in West Africa in the midst of a famine he killed a herd of 23 African forest buffalo using a .22 Hi-power 5.6×52mmR rifle with lungs shots, using the American buffalo hunter's technique of identifying the leader and then killing the rest as they milled in confusion. He disliked the double rifles considered archetypal for the African hunting of his time due to what he considered recoil so heavy as to be detrimental to accuracy. Bell used the brain shot extensively wanting to kill elephants quickly before the herd became restless or took flight.

He mastered an oblique shot from the rear which was angled through the neck muscles and into the brain. This difficult shot has become known "The Bell Shot" on elephant.

After World War One he began to use the .318 Westley Richards calibre, observing that his 'inexplicable misses' then stopped.[21]

The most elephants he shot in one day was 19. The most bull elephant killed for their ivory in one month was 44. The largest amount of money made from ivory taken in a single day was 863 pounds sterling. He wore out 24 pairs of boots in a year and estimated that for every bull taken, he had walked an average of 73 miles (117 km).

tac

 

[moose]

He disliked the double rifles considered archetypal for the African hunting of his time due to what he considered recoil so heavy as to be detrimental to accuracy.

Though I've always wanted one, this is probably the biggest reason I've never bought a 50BMG rifle.

 

[RicInOR]

The 7.62x39 will take an elephant. It is probably the most used cartridge for this purpose.

It is not a one-shot kill cartridge. You and your poaching buddies surround the beast and slip to full auto on your AK and let rip 30, 120, 240 rounds. Then take the tusks and leave.

 

[moose]

Killing an elephant with a full auto AK? The elephants might have a chance while a peaved bull chases them around as they desperately try to open the second sardine ammo can.

 

[ma96782]

Elephant hunting in Hawaii.

Tyke (elephant) - Wikipedia

IIRC, the guy with the lever action (i heard 30-30) is (off duty LEO) Brian LEE? The other cops had 9mm pistols.

Aloha, Mark

 

[USMCPickett]

Not so, Sir. The opposite is true.

tac

Yes, you are correct, I wrote it backwards, standard ammo is loaded hot, not NATO. That was a typo. However, if your weapon is chambered in "civvy" ammo (.308, .223) do not fire a 7.62NATO or 5.56NATO through it as you could damaged the headspace or chamber. I am not a gunsmith so I dont know the exact reasoning, however this has been told to me by no less than 7 gunsmiths over the last 15 years. I could be wrong, but I believe the reasoning is due to a very slight difference between the case neck and diameter of the projectile. If any gunsmith can explain to this dumb grunt the reasoning why this statement is common place among gunsmiths, I would appreciate it. I am sure I could find out with a couple hours research, but I havent slept well in the last week (permenantly disabled single father with preteen girls), so I am feeling a dash lazy and exhausted to bother. Thanks for catching my goof, appreciate it.

 

[DeanMk]

I was talking to a friend at work about picking up a mosin nagant for big game hunting and I was tolled that the only choice for elk was 30-06, and
the 7.62x54 was too small.

is this just some kind of snobbery or should this noob just listen and pass on any other ammo.

Tell that blow hard to shut up and leave people alone.
If my friend, who took a change of clothes, a knife and a .30-30 lever action into the wilds of Alaska and lived there for over a year, can drop a moose with that load, you can take an elk at probably twice the distance with a 7.62x54R.
Please feel free to show him this post and if he disagrees, he's free to come over here and tell me himself.

...sheesh, some people's children.


Dean

 

[Joe Link]

Too late. He got gored to death by an elk back in 2011.

 

[DeanMk]

Tell that blow hard to shut up and leave people alone.
If my friend, who took a change of clothes, a knife and a .30-30 lever action into the wilds of Alaska and lived there for over a year, can drop a moose with that load, you can take an elk at probably twice the distance with a 7.62x54R.
Please feel free to show him this post and if he disagrees, he's free to come over here and tell me himself.

...sheesh, some people's children.


Dean

Sorry 'bout that Joe.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

Your friend is either a snob or merely uninformed, but in either case he's wrong. Like everyone else has said here, hunt with confidence if you are shooting x54.

Edit: Maybe he was thinking of 7.62x39? In that case he'd be right.

Keith

I've thought about bringing my CZ in 76239 for elk. Ballisticly, almost the same as 30/30.
And I think we can all agree that 30/30 has taken all kinds of game back in the day.
Obviously it be short ranger 150 yards maybe 200 max, but 30 cal bullet should do the trick in the boiler room.

 

[DeanMk]

...just remember, 7.62x39 normally shoots a lighter bullet than the .30-30, so makes sure you can get the necessary performance from something in the 170-180 grain range.
You can hand load a .30-30 to 2000 ft./lbs., not sure about the 7.62x39.


Elvis