6.5 PRC fail on elk.

[fredoesway]

reminds me of my dad. the best hunter and rifle shot i have ever known. his signiture deer shot was in the pocket just behind the front leg shot well over 100 deer and many elk and pronghorn.. harvested game with 25 35 243 06 and 300win. decided to try 270 so went and shot a pronhorn buck with 130 g bullet, knocked the buck flat. started to put the gun away, my mother said that buck is gettin away. dad said no hes not mother said yes he is. long story short one lost buck. dad said it was that 270's fault. moral of the story bullets sometimes fail for a vareiaty of reasons. talk all you want about my gun is better but game animals react in different ways to different situations.

 

[Koda]

I wonder if with a smaller caliber you would be better off making sure you have better penetration and expansion being secondary? Would an animal die faster with a slightly bigger hole in one lung or two holes in each lung? I don't have the answer though I would think more holes would definitely leave a better blood trail? I'm still learning when it comes to hunting so I'm kind of just asking "out loud" I definitely don't want any bullet bouncing around in there. I'd rather it go through and through.

Those are questions Ive played with for a couple of years now since that bullet I pictured above. Ive never lost an elk, all 1 shot drops, but that's the first one with the Interlock bullet and I didn't like the way that bullet came apart. Then others have told me it did what it was designed to do by creating a wider (fragmenting) wound channel and the base of it penetrating all the way to the exit side (nod to the infamous partition). It certainly worked well but that was only a 100yd shot. Would it have penetrated at 2 or 300yds? (The base of that recovered bullet only weights 58 grains. )

My opinion I think fragmenting bullets work better in medium game and penetrating bullets work better in large heavy game especially with smaller calibers, but I don't think expansion should ever be secondary in any situation. A penetrating bullet should always expand.
An exit hole -should- leave a bigger blood trail than just an entrance hole but that elk had an exit hole yet no blood trail lucky for me he only ran about 50-100yds with both lungs shot out. He ran into thick brush I walked past him the first pass and stressed a little till I backtracked to start the grid search and found him easy enough. It was a double lung "meatsaver" shot so now I want to try a high shoulder or an autonomic plexus shot to drop them right there.

 

[264Winmag]

Those are questions Ive played with for a couple of years now since that bullet I pictured above. Ive never lost an elk, all 1 shot drops, but that's the first one with the Interlock bullet and I didn't like the way that bullet came apart. Then others have told me it did what it was designed to do by creating a wider (fragmenting) wound channel and the base of it penetrating all the way to the exit side (nod to the infamous partition). It certainly worked well but that was only a 100yd shot. Would it have penetrated at 2 or 300yds? (The base of that recovered bullet only weights 58 grains. )

My opinion I think fragmenting bullets work better in medium game and penetrating bullets work better in large heavy game especially with smaller calibers, but I don't think expansion should ever be secondary in any situation. A penetrating bullet should always expand.
An exit hole -should- leave a bigger blood trail than just an entrance hole but that elk had an exit hole yet no blood trail lucky for me he only ran about 50-100yds with both lungs shot out. He ran into thick brush I walked past him the first pass and stressed a little till I backtracked to start the grid search and found him easy enough. It was a double lung "meatsaver" shot so now I want to try a high shoulder or an autonomic plexus shot to drop them right there.

There have always been two camps. Fragmentation and complete pass through. You are definitely on to something because they both seem to work for people. The small to medium game fragmentation, large game complete penetration. Every game animal acts different no matter how big or how fast or what bullets we use. Some will drop, some will run, some will spring high in the air, others not even flinch. I understand the pass through for more blood loss and tracking. To me it's a toss up. I shoot most of my critters in the head unless I am hunting for horns. When I was younger man, I seen one thing that stuck with me. When I or the other 100's of people I hunted with we had at the time, the fastest cartridge's 220 swifts, 257Wby to the 300Wby's the bullets at the time would all fragment but they worked. It also seemed to us, and this will sound stupid to some, but when a bullet was traveling too fast and passed though the animal like a laser, the animal had less to no reaction of being hit. We would track and find it sometimes for a mile maybe more. The hart would be gone but they would make it that far. I started to slow down some of my loads so the bullet stop in the body and it seemed to make them react better and drop sooner. Then my dad would say why are you monkeying around with all that crap when you can shoot them in the head and be done with it on you 1st and only shot. He had a point, but it took years for me to master the running head shot like him and my grandfather. Let's just say I missed a lot before I became good enough to pick my shots before they even happened.

 

[Koda]

There have always been two camps. Fragmentation and complete pass through. You are definitely on to something because they both seem to work for people. The small to medium game fragmentation, large game complete penetration.

Seems like the best bullet would penetrate half way thru the intended target then fragment but we dont have that technology yet. A few of the monolitic companies are trying to mimic the lead core partition with some sucess but since I hunt elk with a quarterbore I lean to the penetration side in case I hit the shoulder bone. If a company can come up with a bullet that waits till halfway thru the specific game species it would rival the classic partition and be the best of both camps.

 

[whiskeybill]

It's hard to say just what happens with these shots. I had taken a nice bull years ago with a custom 35 Whelen, a bit over 400 yards. Dropped and stayed dropped. One year I dropped a cow at less than 100 yards with a 45-70. I turned my attention away for a moment, she got up and left. It was snowing and bitter cold in the Madison Valley, she got in with a bunch of moving elk, I lost the blood trail in a whole bunch of elk tracks.

For several consecutive years hunting SW Montana, I had noticed a three legged raghorn bull. He was getting along just fine. I figured someone had made a bad shot on him for him to lose a leg, but he kept on trucking. Very tough animals indeed.

 

[Spitpatch]

It IS interesting to conduct post-mortem analysis of bullet "performance", especially when the bullet (or portions) can be located. However, in numerous pictured magazine articles and TV hunting shows, this activity often gets a little beyond the pale.

The self-professed "expert" exhibits a recovered projectile, lamenting over its "failure" (core separation, fragmentation, inadequate expansion, etc.), cautioning the loyal following to avoid such a choice of bullet.

The dead animal at his knee is strangely silent on the subject.

 

[264Winmag]

Seems like the best bullet would penetrate half way thru the intended target then fragment but we dont have that technology yet. A few of the monolitic companies are trying to mimic the lead core partition with some sucess but since I hunt elk with a quarterbore I lean to the penetration side in case I hit the shoulder bone. If a company can come up with a bullet that waits till halfway thru the specific game species it would rival the classic partition and be the best of both camps.

Ahw, the quarter bore. My second favorite caliber. The 115 Nosler partition is a magical performer in the 25-06 and 257Wby. I unlucky, was never able to get them to shoot in any of my 25's or the swift A frame as well! I wish I could have because it does offer best of both worlds! The 120 grain partition is great as well. The 25's definitely need more love.

 

[Koda]

Ahw, the quarter bore. My second favorite caliber. The 115 Nosler partition is a magical performer in the 25-06 and 257Wby. I unlucky, was never able to get them to shoot in any of my 25's or the swift A frame as well! I wish I could have because it does offer best of both worlds! The 120 grain partition is great as well. The 25's definitely need more love.

Been using factory ammo the whole time now. Never lost an elk but my marksmanship has improved tempting longer shots. After questiining that last Interlock performance I decided to learn to reload.... Currently working on two bullets simultaneously and will decide later.... Nosler Partition 120gr and Barnes TTSX 100gr. Id like to try the 115gr Partitions but havent found any in over a year now... Im lucky to have what im working with actually.

 

[264Winmag]

Been using factory ammo the whole time now. Never lost an elk but my marksmanship has improved tempting longer shots. After questiining that last Interlock performance I decided to learn to reload.... Currently working on two bullets simultaneously and will decide later.... Nosler Partition 120gr and Barnes TTSX 100gr. Id like to try the 115gr Partitions but havent found any in over a year now... Im lucky to have what im working with actually.

You picked two good ones. Both the 120 Nosler and the 100gr Barnes I had good luck with the 100grain Barnes. I had great luck with the 120 Sierra game king hollow point. Don't let that bullet fool you, it's constructed better than it looks. I also had great luck with my Savage 99 in 250-3000 with the Barnes 87grain bullet with a 1-10 twist. I never shot anything bigger than a deer with the 87 grain but I was not scared to put it in my saddle scabbard when both deer and elk season were overlapping.

 

[Koda]

I had great luck with the 120 Sierra game king hollow point. Don't let that bullet fool you, it's constructed better than it looks.

For years I used only a 117gr Sierra Gameking softpoint from factor Federal Premium ammo with great results. The problem with those was they never grouped good in my rifle but I got the group centered enough to work good enough for moderate ranges. They were also expensive....
I used the same boxed for years until eventually I ran low and so I randomly tried some cheap Hornady American Whitetail (117gr Interlock) and my grouping was way better enough to switch. I started grouping at my range out to 300 yds all shots so thats what I started using I finally took an elk with that pictured above, wasnt impressed to what I used to recover from the old Gamekings.

Heres a pic of a gamekjng I recovered from one of my Rosevelts, high neck shot. Drove a perfect 1/2 inch hole thru the spine. Perfect mushroom and even retained its weight.

 

[264Winmag]

For years I used only a 117gr Sierra Gameking softpoint from factor Federal Premium ammo with great results. The problem with those was they never grouped good in my rifle but I got the group centered enough to work good enough for moderate ranges. They were also expensive....
I used the same boxed for years until eventually I ran low and so I randomly tried some cheap Hornady American Whitetail (117gr Interlock) and my grouping was way better enough to switch. I started grouping at my range out to 300 yds all shots so thats what I started using I finally took an elk with that pictured above, wasnt impressed to what I used to recover from the old Gamekings.

Heres a pic of a gamekjng I recovered from one of my Rosevelts, high neck shot. Drove a perfect 1/2 inch hole thru the spine. Perfect mushroom and even retained its weight.

View attachment 1101371

That's the good stuff. I hunt more moose than anything and had the same results as your picture with the game king on moose with a 25-06, 264Winmag and 308Win. I have had the core come loose and rattled in the jacket before but the core did not leave the jacket. I was so impressed with that bullet on large game I called Sierra and got the whole run down on how both the hollow point and soft point are made. If I can't find a accubond to shoot out of my rifle I then go to Sierras. Never had any regrets. Plus I have always got Sierras to shoot in my rifles. I might be a bit biased because when I grew up I only had Sierras to choose from. No one carried Speer or Big Red. Nosler was what we called a rich man's bullet and we could only dream about finding those.

 

[VanceInWA]

To a large extent there is human psychology at work here. After a hunter has the happy experience of immediate drop and stay dropped, they somehow get the false mental expectation that every animal should respond that way so long as they are using the same cartridge. Consequently, that hunter's tendency is to lose confidence in their chosen cartridge when the next animal does not stay dropped. We see this all the time, the hunter who complains something went "wrong" and to blame their chosen cartridge when it doesn't produce the same result. Big news: animals don't respond predictably and consistently to every shot. They are not machines with repeatable results, they are wild and erratic life forms.

The truth of the matter is hunters should feel lucky when their shots result in an animal that drops and stays dropped. Studies have shown there are three primary shot categories which stop an animal (or human) immediately:
1. A brain shot (and even that does not always work)
2. A spinal cord shot
3. A shot which hits the animal at the exact moment its heart is maximally pumping blood, such that the additional pressure caused by the round hitting the animal's body forces a massive pressure spike into the brain and consequent brain hemorrhaging resulting in immediate death (that, of course, is very lucky timing)

And this leads to a major issue amongst hunters. An animal's typical reaction in response to being impacted by a bullet is to run. Which means tracking an impacted animal, even though it has been shot lethally, and regardless of topographical or weather challenges, should be anticipated as the norm. Tracking an animal that was successfully shot is at least as important as other hunting skills, but unfortunately not enough hunters practice or become adequately proficient in critical tracking skills.

 

[fredoesway]

my first rifle was rem 700 25 06. i killed many deer pronghorn and a few with elk with that rifle. i never tried any premium bullets. i had the best luck with speer 120g. hot core. i have had 3 other 25 06s 2 rugers and the remington i have now was inherited from my father inlaw . if that was my only rifle i would use that on everthing from varmints to moose with rich man bullets of course for the big stuff.

 

[264Winmag]

To a large extent there is human psychology at work here. After a hunter has the happy experience of immediate drop and stay dropped, they somehow get the false mental expectation that every animal should respond that way so long as they are using the same cartridge. Consequently, that hunter's tendency is to lose confidence in their chosen cartridge when the next animal does not stay dropped. We see this all the time, the hunter who complains something went "wrong" and to blame their chosen cartridge when it doesn't produce the same result. Big news: animals don't respond predictably and consistently to every shot. They are not machines with repeatable results, they are wild and erratic life forms.

The truth of the matter is hunters should feel lucky when their shots result in an animal that drops and stays dropped. Studies have shown there are three primary shot categories which stop an animal (or human) immediately:
1. A brain shot (and even that does not always work)
2. A spinal cord shot
3. A shot which hits the animal at the exact moment its heart is maximally pumping blood, such that the additional pressure caused by the round hitting the animal's body forces a massive pressure spike into the brain and consequent brain hemorrhaging resulting in immediate death (that, of course, is very lucky timing)

And this leads to a major issue amongst hunters. An animal's typical reaction in response to being impacted by a bullet is to run. Which means tracking an impacted animal, even though it has been shot lethally, and regardless of topographical or weather challenges, should be anticipated as the norm. Tracking an animal that was successfully shot is at least as important as other hunting skills, but unfortunately not enough hunters practice or become adequately proficient in critical tracking skills.

I have said the same thing as you stated before. It's The real truth. As a kid maybe you shoot a nice deer with a 22-250. The deer still runs away but you recovered it because the shot was not perfect or maybe it was, people think that they need a bigger caliber. I know when I was younger bigger was always better, but then I learned how to really shoot and then it didn't matter.

 

[Spitpatch]

"...but then I learned how to really shoot and then it didn't matter."

My education in real riflery was gently and consistently delivered to me from a Savage Model 99EG in .250-3000. Prior game guns were an ancient and storied Model 1894 Winchester carbine, old enough to be marked "30 WCF" and "Nickel Steel". (Which is what the buttplate was made of, as it reminded my bony little 9 year-old shoulder each time I pulled the trigger.) Learning to shoot from that gun at that time would be like school with nothing but the rod, devoid of lessons.

A Krag was my big step up at the age of 12. Steel buttplate? 180grain CorLokts would allow you to KNOW it. It was accurate, heavy, and powerful. Still NOT an enjoyable gun to shoot.

Then the .250. It opened up a world to me and I am still finding the corners of that world.

 

[orygun]

Ahw, the quarter bore. My second favorite caliber. The 115 Nosler partition is a magical performer in the 25-06 and 257Wby. I unlucky, was never able to get them to shoot in any of my 25's or the swift A frame as well! I wish I could have because it does offer best of both worlds! The 120 grain partition is great as well. The 25's definitely need more love.

I'm trying to join the "Quarter Bore" club. After a couple of other threads here that @Koda and @Spitpatch are involved in, I found a neat, old Winchester 257 Roberts. Waiting for rings so I can mount a scope on it and give it a run. Then it will be down the ol rabbit hole for reloading another cartridge.

"...but then I learned how to really shoot and then it didn't matter."

My education in real riflery was gently and consistently delivered to me from a Savage Model 99EG in .250-3000. Prior game guns were an ancient and storied Model 1894 Winchester carbine, old enough to be marked "30 WCF" and "Nickel Steel". (Which is what the buttplate was made of, as it reminded my bony little 9 year-old shoulder each time I pulled the trigger.) Learning to shoot from that gun at that time would be like school with nothing but the rod, devoid of lessons.

The first centerfire rifle I ever shot is one of those 30WCF carbines. It's what I'm carrying in my avatar pic. These days the steel buttplate of that ol Winchester doesn't bother me. As an 11 year old kid, it SUCKED! It's amazing that I didn't develop a lifetime flinch from that little bugger.

 

[BAJ475]

I would quarantine by myself, in the woods, looking for that elk!

That was my thought. Doesn't quarantine mean isolating yourself from others you could infect? Clearly, the virus could not reproduce itself in cells that aren't living (the elk). And as far as surviving on a surface, it seams to me that a half gallon of cheap vodka would be all the sanitizer you would need.

 

[orygun]

And as far as surviving on a surface, it seams to me that a half gallon of cheap vodka would be all the sanitizer you would need.

For cleaning the surfaces, or your innards?

 

[264Winmag]

I'm trying to join the "Quarter Bore" club. After a couple of other threads here that @Koda and @Spitpatch are involved in, I found a neat, old Winchester 257 Roberts. Waiting for rings so I can mount a scope on it and give it a run. Then it will be down the ol rabbit hole for reloading another cartridge.



The first centerfire rifle I ever shot is one of those 30WCF carbines. It's what I'm carrying in my avatar pic. These days the steel buttplate of that ol Winchester doesn't bother me. As an 11 year old kid, it SUCKED! It's amazing that I didn't develop a lifetime flinch from that little bugger.

I'm with you there! I had it a bit easier, my first center fire was a 25-35. Crescent steel butt plate, Half octagon half round barrel in the nickel steel. Made in 1914. It was given to me by my grandfather. I shot my 1st deer with that rifle off horse back when I was 10 years old. The shot was not perfect but I dumped 4 rounds into him and claimed my first mule deer buck! I was so proud a memory I'll never forget! I still take that rifle out and shoot it as I do my dad's 30WCF carbine. It's funny as a kid, again, I thought bigger was always better so I move through all the bigger and better calibers, but yet in 2015, as a stunt to prove something, I shot a moose with it in Canada where I go hunt moose every year. The shots where I go hunting moose 90% of the time are no further than 15 to 20 yards because the brush is so thick. I called in a moose and let him walk right past me and shot him behind ear about 15 yards dead on impact. If you were to tell that same 10-year-old boy many decades ago that cartridge in your own hands would kill a moose in one shot, he would've said you're full of crap!

 

[Koda]

I'm trying to join the "Quarter Bore" club.

The fun part about quarter bores is they are rich in American firearm history. I got into mine randomly by accident not even knowing the potential or cool history of the 25-06 until much later in life and was like woah I need to keep this rifle and use it.
Back in the day someone necked down a 30-06 to .25cal, this spawned the .250-3000 which became the .250 Savage IIRC the first commercial quarterbore pushing an 87gr bullet at 3000fps (hence the original name). Simultaneously the military experimented with the necked down -06 which encouraged private gunsmiths to continue experimenting. Over time other quarterbores were invented like the .257 Roberts and .250 Weatherbys. But a gunsmith by the name of Adolf Neider kept the -06 casing geometry and called it the .250 Neider but sill a wildcat. Then finally in 1969 Remington got in the game by bringing the original necked down -06 / .25 Neider into production renaming it the 25-06 and bringing it out of the wildcat category.
From what I understand what the quarterbore did for hunting and shooting was greatly improve trajectory with lighter recoiling rifles with equal terminal performance as other calibers of its day.