5 Myths about Appleseed

[Kimber Custom]

No, unfortunately there was a link between Appleseed and Monroe. The seattlepi article didn't list it but the HeraldNet did.

I'm not totally clear on the details but from what I was told it was embarrassing for Appleseed. When the raid came our target backers were up with AS targets plastered all over them. I guess the range was even referred to as 'the militia training camp' which very much goes against AS core values.

The best answer I can give on what's been done to correct this is we have formalized both the vetting process for Instructors/Shoot Bosses and locations.

 

[8ball]

The best answer I can give on what's been done to correct this is we have formalized both the vetting process for Instructors/Shoot Bosses and locations.

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to hear!

 

[Prescott]

Thanks for starting this thread, Kimber. I just wanted to add some clarification to this topic, but you have answered all the questions with the correct answers. Project Appleseed will always allow Military and LEO to come to events for free as this is part of the way that Appleseed gives back to these organizations. Project Appleseed will always offer reduced pricing for women and children, as Appleseed is promoted as a family affordable event. Project Appleseed also has a goal to try and popularize shooting with women and children, as America needs more women and children in the ranks of riflemen.

I am the Oregon State Coordinator for Appleseed and have been with the program since the spring of 2010. The events at Monroe happened before I joined Appleseed, but I do know the details of the events that happened. The Monroe range is privately owned and Appleseed was invited to host our events at the range. Appleseed is always open to hosting our events on privately held ranges, as it is often easier to work with a private land owner than a gun club. The owner of the gun club allowed a convicted felon to operate a fully automatic rifle on his range and they were arrested for this event. The owner of the range claimed has part of Project Appleseed and wanted Project Appleseed to fund his defense of the charges. As he was not part of Project Appleseed, the organization did nothing for this individual and Appleseed quickly disassociated themselves from this individual. It was unfortunate that he tried to hide under the Project Appleseed name and that he got our name spread in the new media as being associated with his range. Today, Appleseed is definitely more careful on the selection of private land owner who are willing to host Appleseed events.

 

[beavernation]

Thank you for the clarification Prescott. As a former attendee of an Appleseed event (Redmond, Ore. July 2012) in which Prescott was the Shoot Boss, I can assure you what he states is the truth. I was extremely happy with the professionalism of the volunteers who conducted this clinic. My girlfriend (soon to be wife) learned a lot of valuable skills for shooting a rifle from real world positions. We will be attending again for sure in 2013! If you think you are a pretty good shot off a bench but want to try something new try an Appleseed and prepare to be humbled. I dare ya?!

 

[ocarolan]

As a former attendee of an Appleseed event (Redmond, Ore. July 2012) in which Prescott was the Shoot Boss, I can assure you what he states is the truth. I was extremely happy with the professionalism of the volunteers who conducted this clinic. My girlfriend (soon to be wife) learned a lot of valuable skills for shooting a rifle from real world positions....

I also attended Appleseeds hosted by Prescott and have to commend him and the team. Even if you're a good shooter, this is a great opportunity to introduce your friends and neighbors to their heritage.

Thanks to Prescott, Fred, and the Appleseed team. Because of you, two of my friends are purchasing rifles and talking like empowered citizens. And we're all aspiring for that rifleman patch. ;-)

 

[SBC97281]

I didnt enjoy subsidizing their weekend activities. And it seems now that the fees are going up on the first of the year, which just means more subsidizing.

The new price structure still has the subsidy of women, children, LEO, Elected Official?, and active duty military by the adult male. Here is what the prices flip to January 1, 2012 for a standard two day event:

<broken link removed>

Adult Male NEW $80 OLD 70
Adult Female NEW 40 OLD 10
Under 18 NEW 20 OLD 5
LEO NEW Free OLD Free
Active Duty NEW Free OLD Free

I suspect they will see a significant drop in attendance.
From a cost of providing the service point of view the subsidy is strange
as youth and ladies typically having shot less can be assumed to be more instruction intensive.

-s

 

[Kimber Custom]

Why so much conern over what others pay to be there? As a consumer you must decide how to spend your hard earned dollar. For $80 you get 16+hrs of quality instruction or $5 an hour. How does how much someone else paid to be there diminish the quality of your training? You will get your moneys worth.

Please don't discount the program because we try to make it cost effective to bring the family along.

I hate the 'f' word. "Fair" is a myth.

For the record I personally don't agree with the pricing structure; my guess is that even with the price increase we will still not quite break even (hense my dissagreement). That said; I believe in the program. I hope you will give it a chance.

 

[Thebastidge]

Try taking a course from ANY other organization for that cost. Even NRA instruction costs more than that, and we don't take up NRA instructing to get rich.

 

[beavernation]

SBC97281 have you attended an Appleseed? If you have and did not believe it was worth the fee then I am truly surprised. If you have not then please PM me and we can arrange to attend together in 2013 and I will pay the fees for both of us. If you do not feel you got quality instruction from a group of quality VOLUNTEERS that are passionate about rifle shooting and history then you owe me nothing. If you enjoy yourself and learn some valuable shooting skills and meet some nice people then you can repay me in some form.

 

[SBC97281]

Why so much conern over what others pay to be there? As a consumer you must decide how to spend your hard earned dollar.

I work quite hard for my dollars and as a result of the skill and labor that goes into earning them, I also spend them quite carefully.

I am not generally price sensitive for what I like. I do find price discrimination quite offensive. I try to avoid it. Where possible, I avoid places that sell the same product for different prices as that strikes me as blatantly unfair.

I am against granting any group special privilege or price because of accident of birth.

-s

 

[Thebastidge]

How about for political strategy? I prioritize firearms instuction for women and children because getting these demographics informed on firearms issues is vitally important to preserve our rights.

It's my time and effort, I have the right to charge whatever the hell I want. Or nothing at all, and pay for the materials myself. For example, I could charge more simply for someone being unpleasant to deal with.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

I'm editing to add this because the above is somewhat inflammatory and I don't want to leave it on that note. I volunteer my time to several causes. Efforts for which I could charge money. All of the Appleseed instructors are volunteering their time and considerable effort, AND some money of their own in order to attend Appleseed themselves and become instructors. If I choose to offer one free slot in each of my firearms classes to an organization such as a battered women's shelter, would you have the same reaction? It's exactly the same principle, just more effective.

The fees barely cover the incidental costs of the organization. Your complaint about "price discrimination" is very irritating to me, even though you're complaining about someone else, because I completely understand the costs to the instructors, and why they do what they do. You're complaining about some of the most cost-effective training you can get, at a fraction of the true price of that training. you're complaining that someone is GIVING you their time, effort, and experience for free, while charging you ONLY for the cost of the venue and incidentals. The fact that they are subsidizing the cost of someone else's training should have no bearing on your value proposition or value received for the cost. You're still getting a value proposition, and selfishly, ignoring one of the motivations of the organization giving you the training- to promote the organization's values into a community that has less exposure to those values in order to awaken them to the value contained therein.

It's especially irritating since you're complaining about a non-profit volunteer organization- do you boycott Denny's or IHOP for having a children's menu, or Senior's specials? Those are merely marketing ploys. Arguably, this is too, but it's a marketing ploy to atract more people to FREE STUFF.

You're being subsidized, and complaining about not being subsidized as much as someone else. You're getting something at below-cost (only possible because the labour is donated) and complaining about it not being even further below cost.

It's easy to get men to value their 2nd Amendment rights. It's much more difficult to get women involved, and children need to be exposed to it before they are programmed in schools and other organizations to be biased beyond repair against their own independence. THAT is what Appleseed and some other organizations are all about, and that diffuse benefit accrues to your future as well.

 

[beavernation]

........yeah that

 

[Brown]

I need to go to one of these. The idea that I can bring my stepson makes it more appealing.

 

[SBC97281]

It's especially irritating since you're complaining about a non-profit volunteer organization- do you boycott Denny's or IHOP for having a children's menu, or Senior's specials? Those are merely marketing ploys. Arguably, this is too, but it's a marketing ploy to atract more people to FREE STUFF.

When you price something below marginal cost you will never make up the difference in volume. You just go broke faster.

Childrens Menus are smaller portions and kid friendlier items. Smaller portions implies lower marginal cost and also helps get families in early. From the economics point of view it is logical. Seniors also tend to eat earlier in the day to avoid the evening rush according to my retired parents. Giving them a slight discount spreads loading out to fill seats across more hours of the day.

Your examples both have different cost structures than Appleseed's where each lane costs the same on average. To give a subsidy or discount to certain groups they risk chasing away the person paying full rates. Subsidies also hinder accurate cost allocation and management.

One of the people who is involved points out their pricing decision has problems:

For the record I personally don't agree with the pricing structure; my guess is that even with the price increase we will still not quite break even (hense my dissagreement).

Appleseed has a pricing problem if they are not breaking even with volunteers doing the work. To continue the program they must cover the marginal cost of each additional lane.

Economists point out that price discrimination only works where you can keep the other guy from know he is paying a different rate or where there is a marginal cost difference.

 

[Thebastidge]

The problem is that you misunderstand the point of Appleseed. Everybody at Appleseed is receiving a subsidy. It won't make up the difference with volume because it's not intended to make a profit. If you want, you could consider the instructors and organization to be spending money to amuse themselves for their own selfish purposes in spreading the word and teaching people to shoot. Would that make it better? Consider it entertainment for the instructors.

Understand this: Appleseed is a 501(c)3 CHARITY organization, intended to promote an understanding of the history of American Riflemanship and educate the public about their rights and duties. When you take charity, you take what you get, and are grateful for it. You don't complain that somebody else who needed a little more got a little more charity than you (unless one is a completely entitled dirtbag.)

And in terms of economics- the majority of the price in my examples is the labour, which varies little between a kid's, senior's, or regular menu meal. Anyway my point stands- I can charge as little or as much as I like for any product I offer, and if you don't like it, don't go. And while you have the 'right' to complain about it, nobody wants to listen to it.

 

[Sincere]

It's not subsidizing the women and children (who surely must make up a tiny minority of participants) but the active duty and LEOs that bothers me.

While I have a great deal of respect for servicemen, I come from a multi-generation military family, I feel that their shooting instruction is already being subsidized by my tax dollars.

Same with the LEOs as far as shooting time/instruction... minus the respect.

Don't I already pay for their ammo and range time every time I get a paycheck? Don't they already get ridiculous perks and deals from every other business and organization? I'm just sick of this LEO hero worship and do not see what it has to do with American liberty, history or riflemanship.

 

[Thebastidge]

Again, you're getting subsidized, they're getting subsidized. Your tax dollars have nothing to do with the instructors' charitable contributions. They may donate their time to whatever cause they want, whether it's Appleseed or a shelter for stray cats.

And Appleseed is not ONLY about shooting instruction. It's about reminding people WHY we had a Revolutionary War, what our duties as citizens are, what the limits of the government's authority are, and what our RIGHTS as citizens are. Who is a better audience for this than military and LEOs who may potentially receive unlawful orders? It reminds these folks that other people have a right to their firearms as well, that police aren't "The Only Ones".

Go to an Appleseed event with an open mind and determine the benefit for yourself instead of complaining about imagined slights and resentments towards police officers.

 

[Prescott]

Wow! I was out of town for a few days and this thread has grown again. Unfortunately, the same issue is being hashed over again and again.

Sincere, I am glad to see that you have passion, and are willing to express your feeling. Too many American are lacking passion for anything in their lives, and Appleseed is trying to get American passionate about the state of our Country. Our hope is that we can reach enough American and get them off the couch and they will take a bucket to bail out this sinking ship we call the USA.

The only person that has the power to change the fee structure of an Appleseed event is Fred. I would encourage you to join the Appleseed forum at www.appleseedinfo/smf and send a PM to Fred about your concerns over the fee structure. He may even answer your concerns and tell you his reasons for the current fee structure.

Now, lets all try to leave keep negativity from high jacking this great thread that Kimber started and get back to what really matters....making the USA the greatest nation on the planet.

 

[Blue Devil PA]

My wife and I just got back from the Moxee, Washington Appleseed Shoot. This was my third time and I still learned and improved each and every time. I have paid for and been paid to attend dozens of firearms training courses/certifications and the consistent, high level of knowledge imparted by Appleseed is remarkably good. This is especially apparent with the beginners that attend, they show such improvment over the weekend. I owe a great debt of gratitude to the instructors (Rizzin, Ben and Paul) for their patience, skill and dedication. For the price of 100 rounds of quality centerfire ammo, you get a great weekend and if you pay attention, even the best trained amongst us can learn something.

 

[Kimber Custom]

Thanks for coming out with your wife and pup

Excluding your rifleman score I think our top score on Sat was in the 130's. Sun we made a second rifleman (Riflewoman actually) with a 216 and everyone was shooting sharpshooter 170-180's. Chris shot a 206.

Ariel, WA is sold out but there is still room on the DRRC line (Eagle Creek) for Nov 10/11 and there will be another event at Moxee (Yakima) Dec 1/2.

Looking forward to getting a range set up in the Seattle area.