45ACP Crimp

[damon32382]

Was wondering what crimp you guys run in your 230gr FMJ's.
I understand most just take the flare out, and that neck tension is key of course.

But I also am starting to understand that too little crimp will not give "as much" sufficient pressure as the round ignites.
In an unrelated email, Hodgdon themselves, even mentioned this.
Anyway, I was crimping at .470, but was getting black marks going down one side of my case with CFE Pistol.
I read an article with a type of equation to achieve proper crimp, which I will link below. But I'd rather hear what the veterans on here have to say. Squeeze Play: How to Properly Crimp Ammunition

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[gmerkt]

For .45 ACP, taper crimp. Re. the article that you linked. As the author says, in part, no amount of taper crimp will correct insufficient tension issues. The taper crimp is to "smooth out" the edge on the mouth of the case after the bullet is seated.

The author also touched on but doesn't elaborate on variations in case material. Bullet tension has a lot to do with case wall thickness which does vary a lot from brand to brand. People who reload their own ammunition are "after users" of brass cartridge case materials. We can only use what is already made. Manufacturers of ammunition on the other hand tailor all of their components to be compatible with their own stuff or stuff they buy to use. Using Remington .45 ACP brass as an example, which is on the thin side. As a fairly experienced reloader, I save these mostly for cast bullet loads. The dies we buy are kind of a compromise set that are designed to work with the widest selection of brass that we are apt to come across. Remington factory dies are no doubt sized a bit smaller to take into account the thin brass they use.

The linked article mentions a formula for getting the tension right, but it also points out this doesn't work with all possible combinations of components and equipment.

The black marks that you refer to from using CFE Pistol powder, that sounds like you assume they are from insufficient pressure. Probably not. Likely just residue from normal combustion, I'd think. Particularly with a CFE powder, which contains chemicals that supposedly deter copper fowling. I have experience with both CFE Pistol and CFE 223 powders, I don't like either one of them and find that my applications of same tended to burn dirty.

I've noticed that different brand taper crimp dies vary in design. Some allow for a more gradual taper than others.

Something you might want to look into is the Lee Pistol Factory Crimp Die. Which does a "post sizing" that kind of smooths down the entire cartridge after the bullet has been seated. I've used a 9mm Lee Pistol FCD and found it to be effective. Lee claims this process helps to attain sufficient bullet tension for proper ignition.

 

[41mag]

CFE Pistol and CFE 223 powders, I don't like either one of them and find that my applications of same tended to burn dirty.

I never did find a pistol CFE load I actually LIKED....Now several years after the event, I loaded IIRO 9/10/45acp/38/357 in various recipes. Nothing I built worked as well as some of my old reliables. No idea on the 223 stuff, I've hit a pause point in my rifle loads...now going on 5 or 6 years. Bolt rifles seem to burn thru the loaded stuff more slowly.

 

[Alexx1401]

Was wondering what crimp you guys run in your 230gr FMJ's.
I understand most just take the flare out, and that neck tension is key of course.

But I also am starting to understand that too little crimp will not give "as much" sufficient pressure as the round ignites.
In an unrelated email, Hodgdon themselves, even mentioned this.
Anyway, I was crimping at .470, but was getting black marks going down one side of my case with CFE Pistol.
I read an article with a type of equation to achieve proper crimp, which I will link below. But I'd rather hear what the veterans on here have to say. Squeeze Play: How to Properly Crimp Ammunition

I LONG ago went with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It was well worth the extra step for how fast and how well it works. No more adjusting the dies. I found that when I run into a pistol that does not like my home rolled much running them through a FC die and they run like factory.

 

[gmerkt]

I never did find a pistol CFE load I actually LIKED

One thing I found when using CFE Pistol. That Hodgdon online recommended data was pretty hot in the several different cartridges I loaded it with. The one that I was most successful with (oddly considering this thread) was .45 ACP. But that wasn't enough to make me like it.

CFE 223, in my applications in .223 Rem. it burned very dirty. I've read both observations, "It's burns dirty" and "It burns clean." I'm thinking that may have to do with amount of charge. I don't load at max. charge levels, maybe it burns more cleanly when it is loaded at high levels. I've found H335 and Win. 748 to be more satisfactory. That is, if I'm gonna use a ball powder. I prefer stick powders.

 

[damon32382]

For .45 ACP, taper crimp. Re. the article that you linked. As the author says, in part, no amount of taper crimp will correct insufficient tension issues. The taper crimp is to "smooth out" the edge on the mouth of the case after the bullet is seated.

The author also touched on but doesn't elaborate on variations in case material. Bullet tension has a lot to do with case wall thickness which does vary a lot from brand to brand. People who reload their own ammunition are "after users" of brass cartridge case materials. We can only use what is already made. Manufacturers of ammunition on the other hand tailor all of their components to be compatible with their own stuff or stuff they buy to use. Using Remington .45 ACP brass as an example, which is on the thin side. As a fairly experienced reloader, I save these mostly for cast bullet loads. The dies we buy are kind of a compromise set that are designed to work with the widest selection of brass that we are apt to come across. Remington factory dies are no doubt sized a bit smaller to take into account the thin brass they use.

The linked article mentions a formula for getting the tension right, but it also points out this doesn't work with all possible combinations of components and equipment.

The black marks that you refer to from using CFE Pistol powder, that sounds like you assume they are from insufficient pressure. Probably not. Likely just residue from normal combustion, I'd think. Particularly with a CFE powder, which contains chemicals that supposedly deter copper fowling. I have experience with both CFE Pistol and CFE 223 powders, I don't like either one of them and find that my applications of same tended to burn dirty.

I've noticed that different brand taper crimp dies vary in design. Some allow for a more gradual taper than others.

Something you might want to look into is the Lee Pistol Factory Crimp Die. Which does a "post sizing" that kind of smooths down the entire cartridge after the bullet has been seated. I've used a 9mm Lee Pistol FCD and found it to be effective. Lee claims this process helps to attain sufficient bullet tension for proper ignition.

 

[damon32382]

Thank you all for the good info and replies. Also happy to hear I'm not losing my mind about CFE. I swear I read so many reviews on how clean it is, when I've never found it to be at all. Thought I was doing something completely wrong. I started loading to max and slowly decreasing my COAL to achieve a "cleaner burn" with no avail. I did good accuracy if I had one good thing to say about it. Decided to buy a 4 pound jug of Vihtavuori N320 to try out.

 

[damon32382]

For .45 ACP, taper crimp. Re. the article that you linked. As the author says, in part, no amount of taper crimp will correct insufficient tension issues. The taper crimp is to "smooth out" the edge on the mouth of the case after the bullet is seated.

The author also touched on but doesn't elaborate on variations in case material. Bullet tension has a lot to do with case wall thickness which does vary a lot from brand to brand. People who reload their own ammunition are "after users" of brass cartridge case materials. We can only use what is already made. Manufacturers of ammunition on the other hand tailor all of their components to be compatible with their own stuff or stuff they buy to use. Using Remington .45 ACP brass as an example, which is on the thin side. As a fairly experienced reloader, I save these mostly for cast bullet loads. The dies we buy are kind of a compromise set that are designed to work with the widest selection of brass that we are apt to come across. Remington factory dies are no doubt sized a bit smaller to take into account the thin brass they use.

The linked article mentions a formula for getting the tension right, but it also points out this doesn't work with all possible combinations of components and equipment.

The black marks that you refer to from using CFE Pistol powder, that sounds like you assume they are from insufficient pressure. Probably not. Likely just residue from normal combustion, I'd think. Particularly with a CFE powder, which contains chemicals that supposedly deter copper fowling. I have experience with both CFE Pistol and CFE 223 powders, I don't like either one of them and find that my applications of same tended to burn dirty.

I've noticed that different brand taper crimp dies vary in design. Some allow for a more gradual taper than others.

Something you might want to look into is the Lee Pistol Factory Crimp Die. Which does a "post sizing" that kind of smooths down the entire cartridge after the bullet has been seated. I've used a 9mm Lee Pistol FCD and found it to be effective. Lee claims this process helps to attain sufficient bullet tension for proper ignition.

I will definitely look in to that FCD, and thank you for the the detailed reply. Another "newbie" question, but would the FCD work on a Dillon XL750?

 

[ron]

I load a lot of 45 acp on my Dillon. I shoot several thousand 45 acp per year for +30 years. Are you having issues with bullets that can be pushed back
into the case? Or function issues? I assume you are using Dillon dies? For the 45 acp the sizing die really is what determines how firmly
the bullet is held in the case. Dillon dies are known to be a bit tighter than other manufactures. From the pictures in the article
you linked I can tell they were not sized with Dillon dies. The loaded round from your Dillon dies will have a 'bikini' look to them. Your Dillon
dies will work great no other special crimp die needed. The 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. You don't want to over crimp the case.
Just enough to flatten out the flare. The crimp is not what is holding the bullet.

 

[ron]

Reading the article wow! What if your pistol brass is different manufacture? I use mixed manufacture 45 brass some reloaded
many times some not. For pistol accuracy mixed brass will work great. Rifle ammo is a different story. For rifle you want all the same
brass and number of times fired. 45 SWC from 25 yards offhand pulled one 9 low and left

 

[Alexx1401]

I will definitely look in to that FCD, and thank you for the the detailed reply. Another "newbie" question, but would the FCD work on a Dillon XL750?

I "think" the Blue use a proprietary die set up ? If so see if they offer some kind of adapter to use standard dies. Failing that what I would do is buy a simple Lee single stage press and just run the finished rounds through that with a FC die. The benefit I have seen using these dies makes another step well worth it. They were one of the best ideas I ever saw for rolling your own.

 

[DLS]

Most Dillon presses use standard dies.

 

[ron]

Your Dillon dies are standard 7/8"-14 thread. My 223, 308, 30/06, 8mm, 40 S&W, 38 spl, 44 mag and 7.5X55 dies for my Dillon are all RCBS.
My 9mm, 45 acp and 357 are Dillon dies. Your 45 Dillon dies will load perfectly reliable ammo with mixed brass no problems.

 

[damon32382]

I load a lot of 45 acp on my Dillon. I shoot several thousand 45 acp per year for +30 years. Are you having issues with bullets that can be pushed back
into the case? Or function issues? I assume you are using Dillon dies? For the 45 acp the sizing die really is what determines how firmly
the bullet is held in the case. Dillon dies are known to be a bit tighter than other manufactures. From the pictures in the article
you linked I can tell they were not sized with Dillon dies. The loaded round from your Dillon dies will have a 'bikini' look to them. Your Dillon
dies will work great no other special crimp die needed. The 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. You don't want to over crimp the case.
Just enough to flatten out the flare. The crimp is not what is holding the bullet.

Yep, I'm using Dillon dies. And nope, no bullet setback or function issues either. Just some unburnt powder when using CFE for 45. Pretty dirty 9mm too, but not as bad. I was told that CFE burns kind of slow, so I should either up my charge, and/or decrease my COAL to up the pressure.
lol! And I do get that "bikini" look too, which I wasn't sure about at first. But then found out it means I have sufficient neck tension.

 

[ron]

I have used 6.7 grains of CFE pistol with 45 acp 200 JHP bullets with good accurate results. Hodgdon chart lists 6.3 to 7.2 for 200 JHP.
Seemed to shoot pretty clean except for some weird goo accumulated? Did not notice any black marks on side of fired case?

Decided to buy a 4 pound jug of Vihtavuori N320 to try out.

Never tried this pistol powder. But Vihtavuori powder is absolutely the most accurate powder for my 223 match loads. The
only problem I have with it is it is exspensive.

 

[Mikej]

The picture of the three rounds, the one on the left looks fine to me. I see no flare left in that case. Realize there is A LOT of leverage in that handle on the down-stroke. As the case is being crimped you don't need to feel very much resistance at all to get the flare removed. As far as .45 goes? I think I've always had some gas escape and leave a little black on the sides of the case. With factory and my own loads. If your getting unburnt powder switch to a faster powder. Something along the burn rate of HP38/231, my preferred .45 acp powder.

Well, now I look at the burn rate chart, and CFE Pistol is down there below HS-6 even. That would not have been my choice for a relatively low pressure round. That N320 will likely help. I've never used it, too rich for my frugal blood. If you're loading 9mm and .40 that CFE will probably burn better in those small higher pressure rounds.

 

[damon32382]

I have used 6.7 grains of CFE pistol with 45 acp 200 JHP bullets with good accurate results. Hodgdon chart lists 6.3 to 7.2 for 200 JHP.
Seemed to shoot pretty clean except for some weird goo accumulated? Did not notice any black marks on side of fired case?

Never tried this pistol powder. But Vihtavuori powder is absolutely the most accurate powder for my 223 match loads. The
only problem I have with it is it is exspensive.

Exactly what I've heard about all makes of Vihtavuori powder! Excited to try out. It does cost more per pound, but I'd be using less powder than CFE, about 20%. So I think it evens out with the N320 at least

 

[gmerkt]

I will definitely look in to that FCD, and thank you for the the detailed reply. Another "newbie" question, but would the FCD work on a Dillon XL750?

I've used the Lee Pistol FCD in 9mm on a Dillon 550. I don't see why it wouldn't work on your press.

Redding makes a steel sizing die that has a slight taper at the mouth built into it, that helps with using thin brass. But of course you need to lube cases with a steel sizing die.

Carbide sizing dies are great for eliminating the need for lubing. But the carbide ring is at the base of the die, so this is the size it's gonna be the entire length of the surface sized. Said another way, the carbide ring isn't the full length of the die body as a steel die is. This is problematic if there is any appreciable amount of taper to the case. 9mm can be the trickiest for getting nice looking reloaded product. To allow for the taper in the 9mm case, the carbide ring is longer than most found in such dies. Sometimes, you have to experiment with different die set brands and brands of components to get the best results. I have three different brand sets for some cartridges. Sometimes I switch around and use a mix of different brand dies to get a result that I like.

Years ago, I converted from steel sizing die sets to carbide sets. But because I sometimes didn't like the results of using a carbide die, I reacquired steel die sets for those occasions when I wanted to use them. You can't even find new steel die sets in some calibers.

 

[damon32382]

I've used the Lee Pistol FCD in 9mm on a Dillon 550. I don't see why it wouldn't work on your press.

Redding makes a steel sizing die that has a slight taper at the mouth built into it, that helps with using thin brass. But of course you need to lube cases with a steel sizing die.

Carbide sizing dies are great for eliminating the need for lubing. But the carbide ring is at the base of the die, so this is the size it's gonna be the entire length of the surface sized. Said another way, the carbide ring isn't the full length of the die body as a steel die is. This is problematic if there is any appreciable amount of taper to the case. 9mm can be the trickiest for getting nice looking reloaded product. To allow for the taper in the 9mm case, the carbide ring is longer than most found in such dies. Sometimes, you have to experiment with different die set brands and brands of components to get the best results. I have three different brand sets for some cartridges. Sometimes I switch around and use a mix of different brand dies to get a result that I like.

Years ago, I converted from steel sizing die sets to carbide sets. But because I sometimes didn't like the results of using a carbide die, I reacquired steel die sets for those occasions when I wanted to use them. You can't even find new steel die sets in some calibers.

I lube my cases anyway. Even with Dillon carbide dies, makes the press run so much smoother I've noticed. I'll be on the lookout for some steel dies then. Wouldn't mind seeing the difference on how it is sized. Thank you.

 

[Wayne]

Measure the thickness of your case X 2 plus the bullet diameter, that is what your crimp should be.