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454 casull vs 357 Magnum

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by Iansstud, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    Well like the title says, I'm looking into a new revolver... mostly for open carry in the wooks, worried bout black bear, as I just found prints in my back yard from a bear.... So.. I have a 357 but im in the middle of rebuilding it, and was thinking it would be cool to have a 4" 454 casull tracker.

    How is the 454 stack up against the 357 for recoil?

    Would my 40 super JHP be ok against a bear?

    or should I think about the 357/454.
     
  2. kevlar

    kevlar Mt.Angel Active Member

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    Threre really is no comparison.
    .357 easily managed
    454 casull on the other hand takes some serious getting used to and trigger time to be worth buying. Id say find some one to let you shoot one a few times before you ever buy. Its a pretty awesome gun wicked powerful. But can be far too much for some. Others shoot it one handed all day.

    as for the 40?? I dont think id try that against a bear. Not to say it wouldnt eventually work. But I think a more powerful weapon would be a significantly better idea.
     
  3. Otony

    Otony West of the Blues Member

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    If you are truly concerned about recoil (and your post didn't really say you were sensitive to it, just asking for a comparison) let me assure you the .454 and the .357 are light years apart.

    This is not to say the .454 is vicious or uncontrollable, but there is a whole heck of a lot more going on than with a .357 and it will take some practice to accustom yourself.

    I am not too sensitive to handgun recoil, but I am a bit of a lightweight when it comes to rifle recoil. A .300 mag is about my limit of enjoyment, and I usually come home after a range session with my .300 feeling a bit beat up. Of course hunting is a whole different story, you typically don't notice recoil as much (if at all) when hunting. On the other hand, long days with a .44 magnum are sort of exhilerating. A .454 is only a bit more heavy recoil wise than a .44 magnum, if that is a basis of comparison.

    If I might make a suggestion? Your .40 Super (if the Triton cartridge is indeed what you are writing about) would work quite nicely. It is not the same as a .40 S&W and should serve very well for black bear, but if you are in the mood for a revolver consider a .41 magnum. It has similar ballistics to your .40 Super and is a bit less hamstrung as to over the counter cartridge availability. It also exhibits recoil that I would class as more easily manageable than a .44 or .454 Casull.

    My two cents......
     
  4. KENOC

    KENOC Portland area Member

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    I think unless you hit him perfectly, you are more likely to just piss the bear off with a 357.
    You should not shoot him anyways, unless he is charging you and not going to stop (and they usually stop as it is a bluff charge most of the time), and by then it will likely be to late to hit him perfectly with a 357. Better off with bear mace or throw him a bunch of berries. BLack bears are not usually agressive and usually just leave you alone unless they have been fed by humans, in which case he likely just wants you to feed him, not attack you.

    1 in 17,000 humans commits murder each year. 1 in 750,000 bears kills a human once a year. So you are about 500 times more likely to be killed by a human than a bear.

    Carry berries or honey or mace for the bear and a quick draw handgun for the human.
     
  5. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I bought a 6" Freedom arms 454 Casull when it was the only handgun chambered in that round. Beautiful gun, loved to to pet it while watching tv, really it was a work of art. Now shooting that beast was a whole different matter, very flat shooting, with a 4 foot fire ball coming out the business end, me pointing the thing almost straight up after firing, because of recoil, the Freedom arms was is a 5 shooter, and after 10 rounds of full power rounds I was done, and my wrists were sore the rest of the day, not a fun gun to shoot as far as I'm concerned, although I could shoot .45 long colt through it, that's not what I bought it for. .45acp, .357, .44 mag, no comparison. Finally sold it, got tired of petting a $1000 gun. No offense meant to anyone who owns one, I'm just a wuss......:D
     
  6. slingshot1943

    slingshot1943 salem or Well-Known Member

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    I think a 454 would work nicely, but with a longer barrel maybe. I wouldn't prefer to be a walking buffet with berries and honey.
     
  7. rudedog04

    rudedog04 oregon-roseburg Member

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    I carry a 454 shoot 45lc for practise my wife carries a 357 and practises with 38s
     
  8. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    Just fyi, I don't think there is a .454 Tracker, only the .454 Raging Bull. The Tracker is a relatively small frame, where as the Raging Bull is a large frame built like a tank.

    You should also consider .44 or .41 mag, since they are nearly in the middle between .357 and .454 as far as power and recoil.

    As far as a bear is concerned, any gun has a chance of deterring a slightly aggressive bear, but if it really wants you, usually the more power, the better off you are (as long as you can still place shots). There have been stories of people taking bears with .40 or .223 or whatever, but hunting vs being attacked by a bear are two totally different scenarios requiring different thought processes about "what to buy"
     
  9. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    2nbwxmv.jpg
     
  10. Oro

    Oro Western WA Active Member

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    What nonsense. Yes, you'll piss him off, as much as you would a man-sized target with a hit from a .357. You'll likely piss him off to the point he runs away or collapses dead. That's "pissed off" enough for me.

    Black bears in lowland-WA don't run that huge that a .454 Casull is a "must have" deterrent. When in grizzly territory, I'll "upgun" to a .44 magnum - but for black bears in WA a .357 is going to suffice as tons of hunting experience has shown. Bear trackers even host hunts with calibers such as .45acp and less - though I don't personally think that's humane or sensible.

    The first rule is buy a gun you will carry on you and shoot well. If you can do that with a .454, then go for it. But most people find a more reasonable level of comfort/control at .44 magnum, .41, or .357 magnum levels. And no one has shown even a .357 to be ineffective against charging black bears. It tends to do the job. Learn to shoot it, load it properly, and practice so you can control it.

    I've had a number of bear encounters and none of them even result in pulling my weapon. We just each go on our separate ways. Keep that in mind, and when you see one, enjoy it, revel in the majesty that is nature, then walk the other way and avoid a messy scenario. Being charged by a raging bear is one thing, but simply seeing or encountering one is not a reason to go shooting. I take my bear defense very seriously with livestock and family in the woods, but still - it never really needs to end in shots fired unless they are crazed or you mismanage the situation.

    All that said, I don't travel lightly in bear country. In lowland black bear territory (most of the cascades west of the Pacific Crest), I'm happy with a .45 or .357. It will work fine as long as you can shoot it. When I'm in the very high slopes and mountains with lots of bears, I will carry a .30-30 as well, or I will carry a .357/.44 and have my trail partner carry at least a .357. In the northern regions with known brown/grizzly habitat, I carry at least a .44 magnum and usually a .30-30 and .44, with a trail mate carrying a .357 as back up. There's a huge value in having one other armed, sane person in your party. In no normal case that an attack by a bear or cougar results in death in seconds - another armed person is a huge safety factor if you are really worried in the woods.
     
  11. HappyRoman

    HappyRoman Sherwood Forest Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    454 is as previously stated a wicked round. Lots of recoil, that was the question.
    If you a 1911 type, try the 45 WIN Mag. It's very effective, less precieved recoil, similiar size projectile, a little less bullet weight and extremely accurate.
    It might be for the AVERAGE shooter, who only practices several time/year.
    Both are extremely loud, and expensive to shoot.
    Reloading both, since they are straight sided cartridges, is not much of a problem.
     
  12. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    yes it is a 40 super NOT the 40 short and weak, this round makes the 10mm look like a 38 when compaired to a 357.

    I bought a barrel by bar-sto for my usp c 45 and it fits in my usp ct, it came with 500 pcs brass, 100 loaded rounds, dies, bullets data....

    I have even thought of using this round for carry...

    Its something like 1500-1800fps w/ 135g JHP rounds, they say its a good hunting round, and has great groups at 100yds.

    The blackies here are small, but I would not try and cuddle with them, I will not carry honey/ barries... I have thought of pepper spray, I just thought It would be cool to own a 454 casull but Im not to sure how much it would get shot... I thought I did see a 454 tracker, I bid on it on GB but lost about 6mo ago, must have been a raging bull.

    I dont really care about recoil, but would like to not have hamburger for a hand when im done at the range...

    Im thinking the 40 super has a leg up on the 45 win mag, after it is a win mag that has been necked down to 40 cal... It may be easyer to reaload 45wm but I was always told the necked rounds feed easyer, and are more reliable
     
  13. KENOC

    KENOC Portland area Member

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    If you can hit and stop a charging bear running 35mph at you with one shot from a 357 ( and you only will have time for one shot), more power to you. You are more calm, collected and a more perfect shot than likely 99% of us are.

    We are not talking hunting here, where you have time to stalk and aim. We are talking shooting a charging bear.
    I would want nothing less than a .44 mag for that.
     
  14. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    It sounds like a good time to put this to a test! :D

    Kidding, but it really comes down to what you are competent with, and what you feel safe with in the woods. Whether or not a certain caliber will stop a bear or whatever, has so many variables involved that makes it too complex to say that certain calibers will, or will not stop a charging bear.

    As far as myself, I'd feel safe with a .44 magnum in my neck of the woods, but any gun is better than no gun.
     
  15. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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  16. techieguy

    techieguy Well-Known Member

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    Check out the guntalk podcast from 23 August (I believe the 3rd hour) where Tom Gresham interviews a guy from Alaska who was out walking his dogs when a Brown bears charges him from behind only 60' away! The guy is carrying a Ruger Alaskan (2 or 2.5" barreled 454) and dumps 4 rounds into the bear breaking it spine (luck shot really) and the bear slide past him on its chin while the guy is falling over is own feet literally. While a heart of lung shot may have killed the bear in time, what damage would that ticked off bear do to you???

    Anyway if I was concerned about bears, I would carry the largest caliber I could shoot effectively. Just my 2 cents.
     
  17. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    1st of all he misses the bear

    2nd the blast is what scares the bear away...

    any thoughts on the 40 super?
     
  18. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Ya the bear was startled and stopped the charge, and they were extremely lucky, and about a second away from being bear chow, just how quick can you draw a (40 super) and "stop" a charging bear ??......:winkkiss:

     
  19. dobanion

    dobanion North Portland, Oregon Member

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    From all I have heard about large bears, that are pissed off, charging, and full of adrenaline, is that they are nearly impossible to stop. The vitals are SOOOO deep, and very small in comparison to the heaping mass that running right at you, while swaying side to side. The only chance you have is a headshot, and even then the incredibly thick skull has a likelihood of deflecting many smaller rounds.

    I wonder, would the best weapon be a short barrel 12 gauge with birdshot, fired directly into the bears face? Give up on killing the thing, just blind him and run like ****.
     
  20. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Putting this in a little different perspective, according to info available, bears can run 30-40 mph, black bears being the fastest, at 40 mph=58.7feet per second, at 30mph=44 feet per second at full charge, you spot the bear at full charge 100' away, you've got 2 seconds or less to decide what you're gonna do? Let me ask ya "do you feel lucky"........:winkkiss: