.45 acp stopping power

[Blitzkrieg]

I would defend myself before using a public defender.. they are a sure ticket to a conviction

 

[SynapticSilence]

My point was that people make a lot of assumptions about the legal process without having ever set foot in a courtroom. And demographics of this forum aside, most people in today's economy likely lack the resources an extended criminal proceeding would require. My wife and I are both professionals and earn six figures, but I can tell you from years of experience working and testifying in the court system that the costs of any extended legal battle, especially one involving aggressive DAs intent on conviction, would drain us very quickly. Most criminal attorneys for a case involving allegations of wrongful death will demand a five-figure retainer up front. And that just gets you started. If most people on this forum can handle that, I'd be surprised. That's not a slam on anyone's socioeconomic status, just an acknowledgment that most people underestimate the costs involved. I don't think that's condescending. Assuming somebody is incapable of independent thought on a subject based on his own experience and assessment is.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I agree, you have it. The system is twisted and broken. Past time for the reset button

 

[clambo]

I have always had faith in good old G.I. Hardball or my own 200 gr. cast semi-wadcutters. Many will disagree with that and they will have a valid point for hollowpoints but my way allows for a lot of inexpensive practice. I'm one of those who believes that luck, shot placement, and multiple shots are the best bet. I am also a believer in good RunFu skills.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Ball is far inferior to modern hollowpoints that often open to 2 x caliber.. it leaves a permanent 36 caliber path. Also ball is famous for bouncing off skulls

 

[Trailboss]

... it leaves a permanent 36 caliber path.

How'd it shrink from 45 to 36?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

How'd it shrink from 45 to 36?

Because of the round nose.. it simply pushes the extra tissue aside, not permanently damaged. The 9MM leaves something like a 25 caliber path and so on. A good hollowpoint leaves at it's peak up to a 90 caliber hole in 45

 

[Squidly]

I would defend myself before using a public defender.. they are a sure ticket to a conviction

Defending yourself is not as hard as most people think. It takes some guidance.
<broken link removed>

 

[clambo]

Ball is far inferior to modern hollowpoints that often open to 2 x caliber.. it leaves a permanent 36 caliber path. Also ball is famous for bouncing off skulls

Bouncing off bowling pins....yup ! Steel pot ?....yup ! Skulls you say ? Human skulls ? I wonder how many people lived to report that amazing fact ?

 

[JGRuby]

If you're talking about reloading for self-defense, I personally would urge you to reconsider. Legally, shooting someone with a reload you made for maximum stopping power will take a lot more explaining than buying one of the myriad of great self-defense products that are on the market.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

What evidence do you have of this ,like which court
case? That to me is only a myth.

James Ruby

 

[SynapticSilence]

Please read the thread. It's my own advice based on common sense and 13 years of courtroom experience. Feel perfectly free to ignore it.

 

[JGRuby]

I will treat it as hear say and your opinion - unless there is precedence there is no basis for this urban myth on using reloads for personal protection.

James Ruby

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Bouncing off bowling pins....yup ! Steel pot ?....yup ! Skulls you say ? Human skulls ? I wonder how many people lived to report that amazing fact ?

It's happened many times with lower velocity ball rounds.. A good sharp hollowpoint might have dug in and taken the side of their skull off

https://www.google.com/search?q=45 ...fficial&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

 

[JGRuby]

If my 45's only shot ball I would not have a problem carrying FMJ. You might get one in a thousand to bounce off someones skull - I would be happy to take those kind of odds any day. No pistol round is perfect. My current load is pushing a 230gr XTP at around 950fps, sufficent for my purposes.

James Ruby

 

[del_and_bones]

Kinetic energy is over rated. The theory of dumping maximum kinetic energy in the intended target creates maximum trauma is only theory.

K = 1/2 Velocity squared X Mass

Any old hunter can tell you that a fat slow bullet causes more trauma than small fast one.

Momentum and frontal area does the real work.

Momentum = Velocity X Mass

Concerning knock down power,

Force = Mass X Acceleration

Stop watching so much TV.

The bullet imparts momentum and also converts kinetic energy into work.

Work = integral of Force over distance

Force = time derivative of momentum

I do agree with the fat and slow concept. Momentum breaks bones and creates wound cavities. Not trying to start anything, just clarifying. I may be off by a negative sign on the work equation.

 

[Squidly]

The bullet imparts momentum and also converts kinetic energy into work.

Work = integral of Force over distance

Force = time derivative of momentum

I do agree with the fat and slow concept. Momentum breaks bones and creates wound cavities. Not trying to start anything, just clarifying. I may be off by a negative sign on the work equation.

Momentum and kinetic energy are 2 different animals. K is not to be disregarded. The link posted earlier in the thread explains it much better than I ever could. It all has to do with permanent wound channel. The battle surgeon's opinion matches up with the observations of the old hunters in my family (big fat heavy bullets, such as 45-70 have the best instant kill).

 

[del_and_bones]

I'm not advocating for disregarding K, I was making a statement about my affection for large bores (namely the .45-70). That was a very enlightening read with great points and I agree with all of them.

However the intent of my last post was to illustrate, using physics, what ways a bullet departs energy and momentum on the object. This segues into how force, momentum and energy are related and how to move between them. In general if one of those three quantities is changing, the others can yield relevant information about the system.
Namely:
K = (P^2)/(2m)
F = (dP)/(dt) = -(dW)/(dx)
K = W (more or less through conservation of energy)

 

[deen_ad]

I will treat it as hear say and your opinion - unless there is precedence there is no basis for this urban myth on using reloads for personal protection.

James Ruby

Lets see: Massad Ayoob's published articles and court decisions against using reloads are "urban myth"?

 

[clambo]

Lets see: Massad Ayoob's published articles and court decisions against using reloads are "urban myth"?

(Yawning) Uh...yes. Massad Ayoob, while probably a fine pistol shot, is the self promoter/bozo of the century. He's practically the founder of an entire industry of fear, the industry of fear that many of you should know better than to believe. How many court decisions are we talking about here ? 2 or 3 ? Out of a nation of 311,591,917 people ? That is such a ridiculously low percentage that it defies my ability to do the math without a calculator. ( Ok, it defies my poor math skills entirely ) Learn to trust your own good judgement and not trust all the crap they publish in gun magazines.

 

[Burt Gummer]

If you're talking about reloading for self-defense, I personally would urge you to reconsider. Legally, shooting someone with a reload you made for maximum stopping power will take a lot more explaining than buying one of the myriad of great self-defense products that are on the market.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

I remember this discussion in law courses I once took. The professor told the class to buy the best defense ammo you could buy at 'GI Joes,' but don't think about loading your own because the prosecution will blow that right out of proportion. That you made special bullets to maim/kill. Well, duh.

Take a minute to consider how stupid the average person/juror is and how easily they are manipulated.

We all know how fear and wordplay rules even more today than year's ago.

I stopped putting Buffalo Bore in my CC as my final rounds just for that reason. I could hear it now. "This killer used BUFFALO bullets to kill this fellow!!!"

The whole judged by 12, carried by 6 thing is fine, but I never even once put a pistol on my belt without pondering the legal ramifications of doing so.

Speer Gold Dots - now that sounds nice and peaceful lol; Buffalo Bore or Zombie Max does not. If you are ever brought up on charges you can be guaranteed that the type of bullet you used will be paraded in front of the jury. If your defense lawyer can show that you acted 'reasonable' in your purchase of XXX rounds at Bi-Mart, things will go better for you.

If Zimmerman had used Zombie Max or loaded his own ammo that is all you would have heard 24/7.