.45-70 and sabots?

[thorborg]

I shoot and load 45-70 in leaver carbine and revolver so interested in the reality of your future experiments along your stated goals. especially practical kill zone. Heavy shot in rifling for small game is unreliable at best.
I found this:

Which @ 63 grains certainly fits the "light" bill and might be fun to try stuff into a 45-70 shell.

 

[The Heretic]

Yeah - for the .30-30 - if that was what you had in your hands, if they were accurate and you knew how to adjust your sights or compensate for the shift in aim, then they could prove useful.

I think it is probably the .30-30 loads I have as I did not have a .30-30 for the longest time. I will have to dig them out and see how they shoot.

 

[The Heretic]

I shoot and load 45-70 in leaver carbine and revolver so interested in the reality of your future experiments along your stated goals. especially practical kill zone. Heavy shot in rifling for small game is unreliable at best.
I found this:
View attachment 385655
Which @ 63 grains certainly fits the "light" bill and might be fun to try stuff into a 45-70 shell.

Huh.

Where did you see those?

 

[thorborg]

Huh.

Where did you see those?

I read your post, and then later that day happened to give a quick perusal to the American rifleman NRA mag just received yesterday and found a small subscript ad touting them from muzzle-loaders.com

 

[7SFCW4]

...better use of your sabot, try .45 ACP with a .45 CAL sabot and a .357 projectile...

 

[The Heretic]

...better use of your sabot, try .45 ACP with a .45 CAL sabot and a .357 projectile...

I don't hunt small game with a .45 ACP pistol

 

[orygun]

...better use of your sabot, try .45 ACP with a .45 CAL sabot and a .357 projectile...

If this feeds well in an auto, it's an interesting proposition. As someone who loves revolver cartridges, but finds carrying a revolver in the field with a backpack to be a bit of a burden, I'm intrigued as to what kind of velocity can be safely achieved with a 158gr .357 bullet.

 

[orygun]

And where would I find a .451-2" to .358" sabot?

 

[The Heretic]

If this feeds well in an auto, it's an interesting proposition. As someone who loves revolver cartridges, but finds carrying a revolver in the field with a backpack to be a bit of a burden, I'm intrigued as to what kind of velocity can be safely achieved with a 158gr .357 bullet.

Approximately the same velocity that can be achieved with a 165 gr. .451 bullet:

Federal Premium Personal Defense Reduced Recoil - UPC: 029465091514

 

[7SFCW4]

...I've never choreographed it, but they do feed in my Springfield. It's been a while since I purchased any (like most of us I bought them in bulk).

 

[orygun]

Approximately the same velocity that can be achieved with a 165 gr. .451 bullet:

Federal Premium Personal Defense Reduced Recoil - UPC: 029465091514

Since that's a reduced recoil load, it's not a good comparison. One can damn near get 1000fps out of a 220-230gr bullet if done right and more than this loading with 185-200gr slug. With a sabot and a 158gr .357 bullet, I believe 1200fps would be attainable. Just looking for verification.

 

[The Heretic]

Since that's a reduced recoil load, it's not a good comparison. One can damn near get 1000fps out of a 220-230gr bullet if done right and more than this loading with 185-200gr slug. With a sabot and a 158gr .357 bullet, I believe 1200fps would be attainable. Just looking for verification.

The point is that a person can get light bullets in .451 caliber.

My original question was how to get light bullets that I could shoot as light loads (probably subsonic) in my .45-70 (.458 caliber) - initially I was thinking via sabot, but I discovered I can buy light (under 200 gr.) cast bullets in .458 caliber.

If I want to carry a hunting pistol it would be a revolver, not a semi-auto defense pistol - I already have an accurate .357 caliber revolver and accurate .22 rimfire pistols so I don't really have a need for a light bullet for a supersonic .45 ACP load as I can buy those. I wanted something I could load in my .45-70 for hunting small game - probably something hardcast that won't destroy a lot of meat when I shoot something like this:

 

[The Heretic]

...I've never choreographed it, but they do feed in my Springfield. It's been a while since I purchased any (like most of us I bought them in bulk).

Choreographed bullets?

Is that something like this?

 

[orygun]

The point is that a person can get light bullets in .451 caliber.

My original question was how to get light bullets that I could shoot as light loads (probably subsonic) in my .45-70 (.458 caliber) - initially I was thinking via sabot, but I discovered I can buy light (under 200 gr.) cast bullets in .458 caliber.

If I want to carry a hunting pistol it would be a revolver, not a semi-auto defense pistol - I already have an accurate .357 caliber revolver and accurate .22 rimfire pistols so I don't really have a need for a light bullet for a supersonic .45 ACP load as I can buy those. I wanted something I could load in my .45-70 for hunting small game - probably something hardcast that won't destroy a lot of meat when I shoot something like this:

View attachment 476383

That's all well fine and good, and I do mean that quite seriously. I believe that a 357 revolver is the handgun equivalent of the 30-06 bolt action rifle. I should never have sold my 686+ 4". Never... And yeah, there are tons of light bullet options for your 45-70, another round I've owned, handloaded, hunted and loved. All good stuff.
But your uses/desires for a sabot are quite different than mine. "IF" (big if) I could achieve reliability and 357 Magnum ballistics out of my 4 1/4" 1911, a gun I find extremely easy to carry when I've got my pack on, I'd be tickled. It not for hunting. It's for saving bacon, if you get my jist. My biggest concern would be reliable feeding, and that alone might just kill the idea.
FYI, Been down that 10mm road. No thanks. No matter who says what, a 41 Mag it is NOT.

 

[The Heretic]

I am quite satisfied with any off the shelf .45 ACP load with regards to self-defense. I am not an advocate for light bullet high velocity loads for self-defense. If I were, I would prefer my Five Seven pistol over my SIG P227.

I am not satisfied with off the shelf .45-70 loads with regards to small game loads. Hence my original desire to find a sabot that would allow a projectile to be used that is sub 200 grain, preferably 160 gr. or less. Since I found some cast bullets that are 152 gr. .458 caliber, I abandoned the search for sabots.

 

[KKG]

At one point in time, I don't remember who, but somebody, had necked down and shorted, .45 Win Mag cases to .357 diameter. They were designed to function in a 1911A1 package with nothing more than a barrel swap & maybe a recoil spring. I had one for a while but found the recoil just a bit more than I was interested in. Besides, I already had a Smith and Wesson, 5" Model 27.

A side note:
It may have been the Bain & Davis outfit - they had the .357/44 cartridge. It was designed to be shot in an S&W Model 29 with a Model 27 barrel.

 

[Capn Jack]

Choreographed bullets?

Is that something like this?

What the heck is that ???

 

[KKG]

What the heck is that ???

U-Tube stupidity at it's Finest???

 

[The Heretic]

What the heck is that ???

It is the closest thing to "choreographed" bullets I could find on the internets.

 

[oremike]

As I read this I wonder why not a just make/ shoot a hardcast trapdoor level load with a 300-350gr bullet? Mild recoil, accurate, non expanding but makes a full caliber hole. My thought is that it would stabilize better with the standard 45-70 rifling twist rate and there fore shoot better at out there a bit ranges.