41P ruling. 1/4/16

[IronMonster]

Well, Looks like its a done deal. 180 days from today you will no longer be able to buy NFA items without the full tilt boogy.

Looks like no CELO sign off will be required, however they will notify CELO on purchase


https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

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[tikkahunter]

I don't see what this is going to help because I still do background when picking up item. I may be wrong but it looks like you need to only send forms to cleo,
But that you don't need their signature

 

[IronMonster]

I dont think it is designed to help, I think it is designed to make it more difficult.

I think the notification to CLEO is basicly the equivalent of "shall issue" You still have to go though to steps but are not dependent on if they will sign off or not.

Its not the worst thing that could happen, but it more or less negates the reason for having a trust

 

[tikkahunter]

I totally agree it just makes it more of a pain with no real benefit

 

[SCARed]

Its not the worst thing that could happen, but it more or less negates the reason for having a trust

If your only reason for a trust was to avoid CLEO sign off, then yes. For me having a trust was so my SO was protected if she was alone with any of the items or if she wanted to start using them herself. Efile was a big plus as well. I wasn't so worried about CLEO sign off here in Clark Co.

Elsewhere someone said if you resubmit for a new item within two years of the previous submission, you didn't need to send in the prints and pics again. I haven't found them at part yet myself.

 

[IronMonster]

The biggest issue I have with this deal (granted I dont yet fully understand it) is that There are 4 trustees in my trust. My wife and two adult sons who live in another state.

The way I read this All of us have to submit the entire package (it would not be so bad if its just once, but its still a huge pain)

I currently have a suppressor coming to my dealer on a form 3 that I have bought and paid for but of course cant do the form 4 on until it gets here.

It looks like I will be getting a lesson in how this all works.

I wonder if the 180 days is until the submissions have to be in that format or is the 180 days just to give the current pending stuff time to process?

 

[IronMonster]

I am in King Co, CLEO sign off was a concern.

 

[tikkahunter]

Talking to my dealer tonight looks like it has to be pending by 180 days so all new forms starting at day 181 will need to abide by new rules
I forgot to ask about the trustees though

 

[Norm0931]

The biggest issue I have with this deal (granted I dont yet fully understand it) is that There are 4 trustees in my trust. My wife and two adult sons who live in another state.

The way I read this All of us have to submit the entire package (it would not be so bad if its just once, but its still a huge pain)

I currently have a suppressor coming to my dealer on a form 3 that I have bought and paid for but of course cant do the form 4 on until it gets here.

It looks like I will be getting a lesson in how this all works.

I wonder if the 180 days is until the submissions have to be in that format or is the 180 days just to give the current pending stuff time to process?

Negative, YOU have to fill out a Form 4 and send a copy of the form to your CLEO. Your wife and two sons have to fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form and send it to you, in addition to a copy to their CLEOs, and you submit all of it with your Form.

 

[etrain16]

So.....how, in any way, shape or form does this new ruling do ANYTHING to help curb gun violence? It's obvious this is nothing but an attack on gun owners. Do thugs, criminals and gang-bangers make regular use of trusts??? And do any of them even buy suppressors? What mass shooting would be impacted by this? Has there been a rash of suppressed mass shootings out there that I've not heard of? People silently stalking folks in an office with only the faint 'movie' silencer sound going off, thus leaving everyone else off guard while the shooter picks them off one at a time?

Clearly, this provision was aimed at law-abiding gun owners, specifically. Because no one else would be using the trust provision in the first place. Would they?

 

[Norm0931]

Well, it was aimed at running background checks on NFA buyers. Basically, with a trust you could potentially buy a machine gun without doing a background check yourself. This was more to do with fixing a rule change than had unexpected outcomes more than anything else. They removed the CLEO sign off from everyone, but the atf wants to run a background on all responsible parties for the firearm. That opens up the door for a lot of people that were being denied NFA items because their CLEO wouldn't sign off. For instance, Multonah County residents no longer have to pay them $35 for a sign off. While, they were signing them, they basically had an Extortion scheme involved. This is pretty tame for what they could have decided.

 

[Norm0931]

Couple things that occured to me however are; 1) how is the BATFE going to know if you forwarded a copy to your CLEO or not? What are the penalties if you don't forward a copy? What if they lose the copy? What if one person in your trust doesn't send a copy of the 5320.23?
2) Are these copies of forms going to be protected under the protected records act? Are we going to see the Oregonian posting a google map of every NFA owner and their firearms?

I just sent an email to the Washington County Sheriff. Going to do the same for Clackamas and Multnomah. Will update with responses.

 

[ThePhonMan]

The annoying thing for me is that 41P will likely go into effect before we have the Form 1 SBR issue resolved in WA. I was thinking of buying a Colt 901 and doing a Form 1 SBR on it so I'd have the option to play with .30 SBRs in the future.

More red tape with no perceptible value. What a government.

 

[JedB]

I have questions related to two scenarios related to my current trust and the new scenario:

1) Purchase of an NFA item on form 4.
I'm grantor and trustee: I need to fill out the form 4.
I have two successor trustees: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I have three beneficiaries: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I would then also need to fill out the form when I go pick up the item.

2) Make an NFA item on form 1.
I'm grantor and trustee: I need to fill out the form 1.
I have two successor trustees: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I have three beneficiaries: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I would then print out the tax stamp when the item is approved.

So, if I'm reading right the total number of forms would also need to be sent to the CLEO office?


Thanks,
Jed

 

[Norm0931]

I have questions related to two scenarios related to my current trust and the new scenario:

1) Purchase of an NFA item on form 4.
I'm grantor and trustee: I need to fill out the form 4.
I have two successor trustees: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I have three beneficiaries: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I would then also need to fill out the form when I go pick up the item.

2) Make an NFA item on form 1.
I'm grantor and trustee: I need to fill out the form 1.
I have two successor trustees: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I have three beneficiaries: Do they fill out the new 5320.23 Responsible Person form (y/n ?)
I would then print out the tax stamp when the item is approved.

So, if I'm reading right the total number of forms would also need to be sent to the CLEO office?


Thanks,
Jed

Question 1:
Yes
No
You fill out a 4773 when you pick up the item, but everyone is assuming now that the BGC is run by ATF on all parties, the dealer no longer runs it. Who runs the check was really the reason behind this whole thing and dates back to "trusts aren't people" ruling a couple years ago.

Question 2:
Yes
No
You will probably no longer be able to efile unless they get livescan working with eforms. Livescan is a digital fingerprint system, but you'd have to get that done at an LEO agency.

 

[JedB]

Thank you for the information.

Just to clarify, my trustees/beneficiaries would NOT need to fill out each time, or the WOULD need to fill out each time?

 

[SCARed]

Trustees only. They are the only ones allowed thru the trust to admin/manage the trust and to possess the items. Beneficiaries are not.

 

[JedB]

Thank you.

So, in each of my cases:

Case #1
Me - Fill out form 4 (start) and form 4773 (pickup)
trustees only - fill out new 5320.23 Responsible Person form & fingerprint/photo pack.

Case #2
Me - Fill out form 1 (start) and printout stamp (after approved)
trustees only - fill out new 5320.23 Responsible Person form & fingerprint/photo pack.

 

[Mike357]

Well, it was aimed at running background checks on NFA buyers. Basically, with a trust you could potentially buy a machine gun without doing a background check yourself. This was more to do with fixing a rule change than had unexpected outcomes more than anything else. They removed the CLEO sign off from everyone, but the atf wants to run a background on all responsible parties for the firearm. That opens up the door for a lot of people that were being denied NFA items because their CLEO wouldn't sign off. For instance, Multonah County residents no longer have to pay them $35 for a sign off. While, they were signing them, they basically had an Extortion scheme involved. This is pretty tame for what they could have decided.

Does this mean that the atf will now exclusively process background checks for all NFA items? If so, won't this cause a huge pile up in the already perpetually lagging screening process?

 

[PDXSparky]

Well, it was aimed at running background checks on NFA buyers. Basically, with a trust you could potentially buy a machine gun without doing a background check yourself. This was more to do with fixing a rule change than had unexpected outcomes more than anything else. They removed the CLEO sign off from everyone, but the atf wants to run a background on all responsible parties for the firearm. That opens up the door for a lot of people that were being denied NFA items because their CLEO wouldn't sign off. For instance, Multonah County residents no longer have to pay them $35 for a sign off. While, they were signing them, they basically had an Extortion scheme involved. This is pretty tame for what they could have decided.

Totally correct. I have made in state purchases of full auto weapons from private parties. I used a trust. Filled out the form 4's myself, sent them in, and got approvals with no background check. I'm pretty sure that using a trust (or corporation) to avoid the background check is the whole point of 41P. People who go the individual route benefit by no longer being held hostage to the CLEO sign off requirement.