3D Printing of 80% Blanks For Side Business Idea.

[arakboss]

I have seen a few 3D printer enthusiasts making and selling various firearm related products. I have not seen anyone selling 3D printed 80% "frames". Are the files not available? No market? Other barriers?

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[Yarome]

Yeah.. they're out there, but not really in the traditional configurations we're used to. Most are printed in multiple parts and screwed together so the geometry is usually wildely adjusted.

I don't think they are very viable or all that popular at the moment though. Too much stress that the 3D materials can't handle in a full on AR-15 or higher caliber platform.

There are issues enough with actual commercial grade poly carbon lowers not being able to handle the stresses.. let alone your typical 3D materials.

I think it'll eventually get there, but a ways to go yet in materials and printers that can actually do it in a user friendly price range. I'm not a 3D printer with hands on knowledge, but I've followed the subject closely for awhile. I like watching the shoot competitions. Best way to judge how much 3D printing in firearm applications is actually progressing.... or not.

 

[Alexx1401]

A while back someone posted a youtube video of people firing guns made on a 3D. They did actually work, some shockingly well. Now how long they would last? Another story. So yes it could be done. Anyone who wants to do this to 80% to sell them? They would be BEGGING to have the Feds pay them a visit. This is poking the bear. Poke him enough he will pay you some attention. Seldom do the people who manage to get this kind of attention enjoy it after they get what they asked for.
This is one of those things where there is what is legal and what is wise. While it is legal not what I would call wise.

 

[Yarome]

I agree some 3D stuff does quite well, but it seems mainly the ones that are original designs taking into account the material being used vs. replicating existing firearms using factory components. Some are made to resemble a known firearm, but the internals are 3D specific in design, or a completely orginal design that incorporates a variety of factory components...kind of a frankengun in and of itself.

Some do quite well, that's for sure, but I haven't seen many that really stand up to long term use. IE., 500 or 1k rounds is MASSIVE... but in any of mine... that's really only a couple 2 or 3 shooting sessions. Not the entire life of the firearm.

The argument goes though that you can simply reprint it cost effectively at will. I get it! However... I don't want to grab my firearm, throw 20 rounds and then suddenly discover I need to go spend a few days reprinting before I can finish off that last guy still shooting at me.

 

[Alexx1401]

I agree some 3D stuff does quite well, but it seems mainly that are original designs taking into account the material being used vs. replicating existing firearms using factory components. Some are made to resemble a firearm, but the internals are 3D specific in design, or completely orginal that incorporates a variety of factory components...kind of a frankengun in and of itself.

Some do quite well, that's for sure, but I haven't seen many that really stand up to long term use. IE., 500 or 1k rounds is MASSIVE... but in any of mine... that's really only a couple 2 or 3 shooting sessions. Not the entire life of the firearm.

The argument goes though that you can simply reprint it cost effectively at will. I get it! However... I don't want to grab my firearm, throw 20 rounds and then suddenly discover I need to go spend a few days reprinting before I can finish off that last guy still shooting at me.

If I already had the machine I would be "tempted" to play a little for me. That's not what I mean by poking the bear. I mean if someone starts making stuff to sell? The feds will not care if it only works a few times they will not be amused. States and Feds are working to do away with the 80%. Getting into this game is only going to get attention. Not the kind of attention I want.
Also FAR from any kind of expert on how this works and no Holiday Inn stays and all. I thought the places making 80% stuff to sell had to submit samples to the Fed's and get the OK that what they wanted to sell was what the Fed's considered 80% so legal as not a gun? Don't know if I am remembering this correctly? If someone make 3D "parts" and decides they amount to 80% and starts selling them? They best hope the Feds do not buy some and decide in their opinion you sold them an 81% and show up at your door. It seems its just begging for the wrong kind of attention the way things are going right now.

 

[Nosferatu]

Not nearly economical enough for production compared to stock removal.

 

[Snip]

Here are some possibly helpful references: Gatalog

 

[arakboss]

Here are some possibly helpful references: Gatalog

Awesome link, thanks

 

[Alexx1401]

Awesome link, thanks

I watched this and it makes me kind of want to get a damn printer

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Yeah.. they're out there, but not really in the traditional configurations we're used to. Most are printed in multiple parts and screwed together so the geometry is usually wildely adjusted.

I don't think they are very viable or all that popular at the moment though. Too much stress that the 3D materials can't handle in a full on AR-15 or higher caliber platform.

There are issues enough with actual commercial grade poly carbon lowers not being able to handle the stresses.. let alone your typical 3D materials.

I think it'll eventually get there, but a ways to go yet in materials and printers that can actually do it in a user friendly price range. I'm not a 3D printer with hands on knowledge, but I've followed the subject closely for awhile. I like watching the shoot competitions. Best way to judge how much 3D printing in firearm applications is actually progressing.... or not.

They typically are 100%. There are quite a few reinforced lowers out there. Some have been tested past 5K. Some are very unique looking, but getting into the 80% business seems like a bad, bad idea. I'd do my PMFs and call it a day.

 

[Yarome]

They typically are 100%. There are quite a few reinforced lowers out there. Some have been tested past 5K. Some are very unique looking, but getting into the 80% business seems like a bad, bad idea. I'd do my PMFs and call it a day.

I squat corrected and will backtrack. For some reason when the OP mentioned difficuty in finding files I got it stuck in my head we were taking recievers, not frames.

Frame files are extremely common, typically do represent existing firearms frames, and are more on the reliable side... than receivers... to an extent.

I've seen those 5k claims... and yeah... with 'X' spendy filiments and this "X" after printing surface process application to strengthen it... shooting "X" types of subsonics... they can do pretty good. But then again, we're not talking about joe blow picking up a $300-$500 desktop 3D printer, slapping out a frame with commonly used filiments and shooting his favorite SD loads out of it.

IOW, the best of the best has been able to blow out a remarkable achievment, but it's not at all a reasonable expectation for your average novice 3D dabbler.

I completely agree though that a side business is a terrible idea. Mfg'ing is Mfg'ing.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I squat corrected and will backtrack. For some reason when the OP mentioned difficuty in finding files I got it stuck in my head we were taking recievers, not frames.

Frame files are extremely common, typically do represent existing firearms frames, and are more on the reliable side... than receivers... to an extent.

I've seen those 5k claims... and yeah... with 'X' spendy filiments and this "X" after printing surface process application to strengthen it... shooting "X" types of subsonics... they can do pretty good. But then again, we're not talking about joe blow picking up a $300-$500 desktop 3D printer, slapping out a frame with commonly used filiments and shooting his favorite SD loads out of it.

IOW, the best of the best has been able to blow out a remarkable achievment, but it's not at all a reasonable expectation for your average novice 3D dabbler.

I completely agree though that a side business is a terrible idea. Mfg'ing is Mfg'ing.

The ones I have seen that get that far use steel reinforcement. Ubolts and such. Esun pla+ is the usual filament.

 

[Yarome]

The ones I have seen that get that far use steel reinforcement. Ubolts and such. Esun pla+ is the usual filament.

Yup. I think printing reliable firearms is an absolute eventuality though. The tech will progress and the costs will come down to make them accessible to everyone, but it's just not there yet.

I'll likely be long gone by then but I can imagine my grandchildren sitting around one day saying, "Can you believe grandad used to have to buy a gun and they used to use trucks and railcars to move them all over the country?? And they used to have to plug things into other things with a wire to make them work...!!"

 

[Alexx1401]

Yup. I think printing reliable firearms is an absolute eventuality though. The tech will progress and the costs will come down to make them accessible to everyone, but it's just not there yet.

I'll likely be long gone by then but I can imagine my grandchildren sitting around one day saying, "Can you believe grandad used to have to buy a gun and they used to use trucks and railcars to move them all over the country?? And they used to have to plug things into other things with a wire to make them work...!!"

That was what intrigued me watching that one video I put up. Right now it was one hell of a lot of work and I am sure pricey. A bunch of the guys at the shoot were having trouble making their inventions fire more than one time. A couple did work though and this is easy to see the early stages of this. As with all "tech" it will get better and cheaper. As it gets better it should be interesting to watch the anti people gnashing teeth trying to figure out how to make a law against it. Tech moves fast now and the people so intent on making new laws are going to push this tech to move faster and probably never even thought about that.

 

[The_Crazys]

That was what intrigued me watching that one video I put up. Right now it was one hell of a lot of work and I am sure pricey. A bunch of the guys at the shoot were having trouble making their inventions fire more than one time. A couple did work though and this is easy to see the early stages of this. As with all "tech" it will get better and cheaper. As it gets better it should be interesting to watch the anti people gnashing teeth trying to figure out how to make a law against it. Tech moves fast now and the people so intent on making new laws are going to push this tech to move faster and probably never even thought about that.

"Sir, we have detected that you have unauthorized code on your device. Place your hands behind your back."

 

[It-That]

Unlike a lot of the "I don't 3d print, but it's not there yet" comments, I do have two printers, and it's there already/has been. The issue is it is difficult. It's more than just printing parts and assembling them, and that work is something that seems to scare people off.

 

[edzz]

Unlike a lot of the "I don't 3d print, but it's not there yet" comments, I do have two printers, and it's there already/has been. The issue is it is difficult. It's more than just printing parts and assembling them, and that work is something that seems to scare people off.

Agree...
Much of what non 3d printing population base their opinions on is very dated information.

The learning curve for 3d printing can be very steep. The variables involved can greatly affect ones (they's ) ability to create a decent product.

I have a few printers ranging from used costing under $100 to more than I want to admit, they can all produce decent products. The cheaper printers require more maintenance and attention and are more prone to failed prints, very frustrating to have a print go south after many hours of printing.

Seemingly small changes in settings when preparing a file to print (aka slicing) can produce great changes in the results. The slicing programs have many variables and all slicing programs are not created equally and just about the time I think I have a good handle on one along comes an "upgrade".

The filament you choose and your print settings will change your results. Changing your print temperature settings by 5 degrees can vastly affect your results.

I have not printed frames however I do print a lot of bitts and pieces. If you choose the correct filament and print settings the results can be amazingly strong. Many of the parts I print are tools, jigs, fixtures and tooling for other projects. Able to print a fixture for the mill for a dollar or two instead of $$$ and weeks of waiting for shipment.

If your not into designing your own projects you can find all kinds of things ready to slice on sites like Thingiverse (one of many).

Enough for now.

 

[Alexx1401]

Unlike a lot of the "I don't 3d print, but it's not there yet" comments, I do have two printers, and it's there already/has been. The issue is it is difficult. It's more than just printing parts and assembling them, and that work is something that seems to scare people off.

Can't speak for others but what I mean when I say "its not there yet" is ease of use and price. Both of these will of course move fast. Price will keep going down, tech will keep getting better, means more will be willing and even enjoy doing this. Should be very fun to watch.

 

[Yarome]

Unlike a lot of the "I don't 3d print, but it's not there yet" comments, I do have two printers, and it's there already/has been. The issue is it is difficult. It's more than just printing parts and assembling them, and that work is something that seems to scare people off.

So what you''re saying is that 3D printing is currently at the level that a frame will match the reliability and longevity of an OEM polycarbonate frame... right?

From my perspective, it seems folks that are heavy into 3D printing like to "believe" and almost cult like defend printed frames as just as good, if not better, than any OEM frame on the market. I "believe" they have an extreme bias and facts don't stack up to support any of those claims, yet.

I have also handled and inspected several of them and have been very impressed, but anything close to what I would feel comfortable carrying as an EDC SD firearm... they most definately are not.

I "would" agree that you can certainly print a frame that will allow fairly reliable firing... for awhile... but accuracy leaves a lot to be desired and frame failure seems almost guaranteed in fairly short order.

I completely get that you can simply print out a replacement frame whenever you want. That's kind of moot when you actually need your firearm, it suddenly fails on you and it won't matter that you can put another one together in another day or twos time... because you won't need it then.. you need it NOW!

Where I think the 2 sides do not meet though is in the expectations when we are taking about if 3D printing "is there yet" or not. 3D enthusists seem to base that on the ability to print and produce a firearm that will indeed fire. The "other side" bases it on comparing them to the accuracy and reliability of the firearm they are trying to replicate. Where frames will typcially outlast their own barrels and withstand a vastly higher degree of abuse without any failure of any kind.

So I guess both sides of the coin are accurate from their own perspectives, but kinda moot when they judging by different standards.

I would love to get into 3D printing and truly believe it's the next evolution in PMF's... and it's certainly exciting to see the progress and what folks are doing with them these days.... but I think it's still far from the point of "press print and fire" that it will eventually become.

 

[edzz]

Was at my LGS the other day and a local NFA dealer was visiting, he asked if I'd seen the new silencers that so and so (don't remember the name of well known manufacture) is selling. When I responded no he ran back to his shop and returned with one for show and tell.

So... he showed me a very well constructed modular 3d printed metal suppresser. Yes 3d printed. Nice piece.

Printed on a hobby printer? Um, no, not a chance, none the less it was 3d printed. A few short years ago that could not have been printed and now 3d printers are being used for aerospace parts that can not be created on a mill. Times are a changing.