.380 vs .38spl in a small EDC thinking out loud

[Snowy Rivers]

That about sums it up.

Everything is a compromise when it comes to concealment.

I love my Glock 32 (357 sig) but the gun is large, even though its a compact.

Glock just introduced the 42, which is a tiny little 380.

The 28 was/is a 380 but has been limited to LE/MIL sales, as it was not certified for consumer import status.

That was nothing but politics, plain and simple.

The 42 is made here for sale here.

I ordered one the other day for the shop.

This should be a great pocket mouse gun.

I hear so many "Carry gurus" rant about the 380 being worthless, and the 9mm is the ONLY way to go for a small carry.

Hmmmmmm, 380 is a 9mm 9x18 to be exact. The 380 is exactly .03937" shorter case than a 9x19 (parabellum/luger round)

A 380 with good carry hollow point loads is not at all bad.

Most defense situations are up close and personal (Less than 10 feet down to arms length)

Sure, a 45 will make bigger holes, but you gotta carry the beast, and hide it.

If it's heavy and uncomfortable, the average person is going to tire of it real quick and leave it home on the bureau, and it does zero good if you don't have it, hence the little mouse gun really plays a good role in the carry scene.

The little tiny revolvers (22) are what I call "pocket rockets" and are again, better than nothing, but this is the bottom of the heap as far as I am concerned.

We sell many of these little critters, and they get carried with the pocket change.

What works for one, does not always work for another.

Dependability is the key word, will it go BANG every time.

Bang when its needed is the big thing.
The other main event is, can you hit what needs hitting ???

No matter what your carrying, and how cool it is, how big it's cartridge, how powerful it is and how fast the bullet goes, the biggy is, can you hit the threat with it ?????

Just some thoughts

Ms Snowy

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The 380 isn't worthless, just has less stopping power. To survive, plan for the worst case scenario.. 300 lb angry ogre on meds/drunk

An EMT told a story to our class once.. a big man shot 8 times in the torso with a 25 auto.. took the gun from the shooter and nearly beat him to death. Big man plugged holes with paper towel scraps, sat down and waited for the EMTs.. he survived

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Simple answer

With a mouse gun and a big bad guy, go for head shots.

Even a 22 will do the trick.

Up close and personal encounters make this shot a no brainer (pun not intended)

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Simple answer

With a mouse gun and a big bad guy, go for head shots.

Even a 22 will do the trick.

Up close and personal encounters make this shot a no brainer (pun not intended)

Sure, if that's all ya got.. BUT

1) Head shots are tough to make at any distance, especially on a moving target

2) Small calibers tend to bounce off skulls. if you are forced to do so and they are facing you, aim for the nose area, the easiest place to penetrate

 

[brentb636]

The 380 isn't worthless, just has less stopping power. To survive, plan for the worst case scenario.. 300 lb angry ogre on meds/drunk

An EMT told a story to our class once.. a big man shot 8 times in the torso with a 25 auto.. took the gun from the shooter and nearly beat him to death. Big man plugged holes with paper towel scraps, sat down and waited for the EMTs.. he survived

Easy to believe. The little .25 is the most worthless caliber I can think of. A .22Lr will penetrate, at least. I , too, vote for head shots when in close. A fleshy upper body can accept a lot of hits, if nothing vital is struck, but a head shot gets some attention. ( Don't use a .25 ) .

 

[Blitzkrieg]

And a strike against the 2 inch 38 snubs is the ejector rod is too short for full extraction, impeding speedloading. There's no free lunch here

My new CCW primary will be here next week.. a 15 shot 10MM EAA Witness Elite, if that tells you what I consider suitable to pack

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Easy to believe. The little .25 is the most worthless caliber I can think of. A .22Lr will penetrate, at least. I , too, vote for head shots when in close. A fleshy upper body can accept a lot of hits, if nothing vital is struck, but a head shot gets some attention. ( Don't use a .25 ) .

I heard of an incident, years ago, of a Navy sailor who, despondent, put a .25 to his head and squeezed one off. The bullet penetrated to the skull, traveled around the crown of his head and blew off the ear on the other side! Must have had the mother of all headaches! A frend had a colt .25 at that time and it was a beautiful machine. It was fit like a Swiss watch, the polish and blue seemed miles deep, but my buddy put it away and went to .38 snubies. The Naval gentlemans skull seemed a word to the wise to Mark.

 

[RVTECH]

Personally I have really changed my position after acquiring my Taurus 605 a couple years ago. I shoot it nearly as well as my 1991 A1 or CZ 75 but it is much smaller and easier to conceal and carry. I do not even think about it's five round capacity as much as I do the ease of carry and not having to think about auto 'issues' Also I like the versatility and ease of loading for the .38 Special. I am already considering my next 'snub' which will most likely be something in 3" with a standard six round wheel. Anybody know a S & W model # that fits that description?

 

[fireninja13]

Also I like the versatility and ease of loading for the .38 Special. I am already considering my next 'snub' which will most likely be something in 3" with a standard six round wheel. Anybody know a S & W model # that fits that description?

In the world of the S&W I would only direct someone to the older models before the d*mnable frame lock (and 'cause they were made better, by hand, by artisans who knew their trade). If you want a 6-shot S&W you'll be moving up from the 5-shot J-frame to at a minimum a K or L frame. Given your criteria the venerable model 10, 11, 12, 14, or 15 would all suffice, assuming you could find one in a 3" barrel, which is possible. the older ones will likely be all steel models and have 4" barrels. And they will have DA triggers that will ruin you for modern revolvers forever.

Frankly, I would step up to a .357 Magnum K-frame like a Model 13, 19, 65, 66. All of those were made in a 3" barrel (if you can find one), and all are fantastic guns -- some old curmudgeons think the K-frame magnums were the pinnacle of S&W revolver evolution. They are about the same size and weight as a .38 spec K-frame but can fire the (relatively) undisputed greatest "man-stopper" of all times -- the .357 Magnum. They carry well, and were a standard duty weapon for Law Enforcement for many decades.

The K-frames aren't made anymore, and now the heavier L-frames have replaced them. I love my 686-4 -- it is in my "never to be sold" category. But, I wouldn't want to lug it about every day.

If you want to go super-classy and old-school, you could get an old Model 27, the original N-frame .357 Magnum, which came in a 3.5" barrel for carry. It is a large and beautiful weapon, and S&W's flagship model from an era when things were made to a different standard of workmanship. They aren't light, and they aren't cheap, but for my money the only thing in their league is a Colt Python.

Speaking of Colts, if you were to leave the S&W camp, the Colt Detective's Special or the alloy framed Agent are 6-shot .38 spec snubbys and excellent guns. Size-wise they are in-between the J-frame and the K-frame.

 

[mjn]

A better comparison (IMO) would be one of the current crop of single stack micro 9MM's vs a 38/357 snubby.
I switch back and forth with my Sig P938, and S&W 360PD. In the PD, I carry with +P's... I figure the outcome with the 1 7/8" barrel is darned near the same, but with less recoil, and far less flash.
As has been said, the 25 auto is as worthless as can be.. marginally better than nothing. I prefer my NAA .22 mag by far.

 

[fireninja13]

As has been said, the 25 auto is as worthless as can be.. marginally better than nothing. I prefer my NAA .22 mag by far.

Awhile back I had a Bauer .25 ACP, which is basically a stainless clone of a the Baby Browning. It was a beautiful and well made little semi-auto -- my buddies called it my pimp gun 'cause of the shiny polished steel and pearl grips. It lived in my boot for some months, then one day I practiced my quick draw from boot holster (I'll do a video someday) at a friend's farm, and emptied the entire magazine into a tree at about 10-15 feet. To my amazement, most of the .25 ACP rounds didn't even penetrate the bark of the tree -- they bounced off! (this is why you wear your safety glasses kids).

I sold the beautiful little gun a few days later -- it was so small and pretty I knew I would be tempted to carry it. . . And, I didn't trust it anymore.

In my boot today is a NAA .22 Magnum w/ a 4" barrel. With the right ammo it will shoot through a "bullet proof" vest.

 

[fireninja13]

IMHO, the other really good .22 Magnum for concealment and carry is the old High Standard .22 Mag Double Action Derringer. It is a little top break 2-shot derringer made in the 70s.

They are about, 1/2" thick, completely flat, and disappear into a pocket. Used to be that you could get a pocket holster for one that looked like a wallet with a hole in the middle for the trigger -- then the ATF declared holsters like that "Other Items," effectively banning them.

The only reason I don't have one in my carry rotation is that my old one currently lives in the left breast pocket of a good friend's Sheriff's Deputy uniform. Figure he needs it more than a civilian like me, and he shoots it better than I ever did

 

[mjn]

. Figure he needs it more than a civilian like me, and he shoots it better than I ever did

LOL! Don't you hate it when someone else shoots YOUR gun better than you do? My 22 yr old daughter outshot me last week at the range with my 360PD... really pissed me off..

 

[fireninja13]

LOL! Don't you hate it when someone else shoots YOUR gun better than you do? My 22 yr old daughter outshot me last week at the range with my 360PD... really pissed me off..

It was spooky -- he fired it once, said "Oh, that's where the trigger engages," and put the next shot right in the very center of the bulls-eye at over 20 feet. And this from a little derringer with a 3" barrel and a trigger like a Craftsman stapler.

Granted, this guy took #3 in the novice division of the national Army Reserve marksmanship competition last year -- didn't win any one category, but did well enough on all the different events to place -- they flew him out of State for the finals. He shoots pretty much every gun I own better than I do. Keeps me humble.

 

[cookie]

I wouldn't want to get shot with a 380. years ago one of my friends called me up because he shot by 'accident of course' a 380 in his apartment and asked me if he should call the cops and report himself !!! Anyway the 380 went through a book in a book case,through both walls of the hall and through the closet and disappeared into the garage wall, no one hurt and he didn't report himself. Besides the basic gun safety rules broken there was no real harm done and the 380 is not a cartridge to toy with. Myself I carry a S@W 442. years ago I carried a Llama 380.

 

[soberups]

Even if it were adequate for self defense...which it isnt....I would not carry one of the pocket 380's unless I had run a minimum of 200 trouble-free rounds of carry ammo thru it in order to ensure reliability. 200 rounds of premium, +P jhp .380 ammo (assuming you can even find any) is going to cost as much or more than what you paid for that LCP / 3AT / 738TCP in the first place. For me, its about absolute dead-nuts 100% reliability and that is why I carry a Ruger LCR. 38+p snubby. At 14 ounces its barely any heavier than the mini 380's, and I have no problem carrying and concealing it in the front pocket of a pair of jeans or khaki shorts with a Galco pocket holster. I have no worries about feeding or ejection, it has an excellent trigger, excellent grips, and I can load it with anything from Glasers to 158 gr +p HP's with absolute confidence that it will put all 5 rounds into a bad guy without any hiccups. And as far as stopping power goes, even the best .380 ammo cant even come close to the proven effectiveness of the 158 grain +p hp or solid wadcutter rounds that are available for the. 38 Special. Why carry a marginally reliable mousegun when you can have "five for sure" in a proven caliber?

 

[BSDave]

I own this same pistol and have had no issues with it to date.

Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull

 

[Certaindeaf]

..Why carry a marginally reliable mousegun when you can have "five for sure" in a proven caliber?

Same reason people smoke crack, drive a Ferrari and choose the stripper instead of drinking milk, driving a Toyota and choosing the school marm.
lol

 

[soberups]

I own this same pistol and have had no issues with it to date.

Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull

Has your TCP demonstrated 100% reliability with at least 200 rounds of your chosen carry ammo? Or did it just work OK with a box or two of affordable FMJ ammo leaving you to assume that it will run those $2-per-round hollowpoints without any hiccups? Not trying to be rude here; if you have indeed put your TCP thru its paces with the same ammo that you will be entrusting your life to then you are probably good to go. I would say, however, that most pocket 380 carriers have not been as thorough and that they are entrusting their lives to weapons that (a) are notorious for being finicky with ammo and (b) are at best only marginally adequate in terms of stopping power even when stoked with the best and most expensive rounds available. Thats just too big a gamble for me to take when the +p 38 Special--a round with vastly superior ballistics to the 380 as well as a proven track record of stopping bad guys for decades--can be had in a weapon that is just as easy to carry as any of the pocket 380's without any of the feeding or reliability issues that these guns are notorious for.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I really like these out of a lot of things but most particularly the .380.. the Lee 105 gr SWC.. mine casts at 108 grains unlubed. Cuts and smashes perfect full-size holes in paper, meat and bone. The Buffalo Bore "hardcast" flat nose .380 gets 30"+ penetration but doesn't cut full caliber holes and costs way more than the two or so cents a shot that mine do. I load mine pretty warm and they work.

If you shoot them out of any other like caliber (9mm, .38 etc.) they do roughly the same thing.