.38 Special +p ammo in older steel S&W J-frame revolvers -- advice from old LEOs?

[fireninja13]

So, after some looking I finally found a pre-lock shrouded-hammer S&W J-frame -- a model 49-1. I have always wanted one of these ugly snub-nosed hunch-backed little things. And after shooting a buddies modern hammerless airweight, I decided I wanted the old Smith action, the option of SA shooting, and no lock, TYVM.

I'm loving the little hunchback , but I'm wondering if I can safely run .38 Special +p through it. . . I have found conflicting info on the various forums elsewhere. Some say that the older steel J-frames are stronger than the alloy successors and can safely shoot +p, despite not being rated for it (due to the fact that it wasn't even standardized then). Additionally the model 49-1 was apparently modified from the model 49 by having an additional pin to help with the higher-pressure .38 Spec loads that law enforcement officers were running through their J-frames in the mid-late 80s. but, despite the mod the barrel is stamped .38 Special -- it was not approved for +p ammo.

So, I'm wondering if anyone hereabouts has any experience running +p loads through the older steel J-Frames. I'm especially interested the experiences of older-generation law enforcement types who used +p or other hot loads in their steel J-frames.

Thanks!

Read More

 

[fireninja13]

Thanks totsonritz -- I'm thinking seriously of using +p Federal Hydra-Shok as my carry load, and practicing exclusively with standard pressure .38 special. But, I'll have to try the 158 grain ammo -- what brand do you recommend? Is it a SWC, JHP or one of the bonded jacket rounds?

Figure that if it comes to that 1 in 10,000 chance of actually using the old bodyguard for SD I wont worry about wear and tear

Still would love to hear from folks who did this back in the proverbial day though

BTW, I found the 49-1 in pristine condition with 99% perfect bluing and original grips at a pawnshop in Tigard in a case surrounded by modern plastic semi-autos and cheap no-name guns. If I told you how much I paid for it you'd be even more jealous

 

[MountainBear]

I like the 158 grain SJHP Remington ammo. On occasion, I carry +P in my guns, but not generally. I've ran it through all manner of old Smiths, including a no-dash Model 36...

 

[teflon6string]

Do I get today's prize for digging up the longest inactive thread?

If you decide not to train religiously by running several boxes of +P loads through your EDC pistol, for whatever reason, I would still recommend practicing with a few now and then if that's going to be your carry round.

The difference in feel (and grouping) can be significant when you compare larger pistols with full-size grips to the tiny, lightweight J-frame. Also when you compare the recoil and between-shot recovery times of normal pressure .38 and +P rounds. Maybe a purpose-made .38 hollow point with excellent expansion specs will suffice?

Whatever is in the cylinder, I want to totally expect what a pipsqueak (easily-concealed) pistol is going to do when I pull the trigger 1-5 times. Both hands, single strong, and single weak. For that reason, it's the last weapon I switch to at the end of an hour on the range. Because (heaven forbid) it could just be the next thing I shoot.

 

[Medic!]

Speak and it shall be done!




Here you go!
But your the last one I'm giving it to.

 

[teflon6string]

In a case like this, must I wait a couple years to come back and thank you?

It's an honor.

 

[WAYNO]

There was a time that most American made .38 Special revolvers expressly warned against the use of +P loading. But, back in those days, a +P load was in a spectrum nearing the .38-44, which was kind've an early .357. Todays +P loads do not get any near those velocities or pressures.

But now, many of the revolvers of today that are the closest to the same revolvers of yesteryear, now magically are rated for +P. I do not know what manufacturing changes now allow virtually the same guns that used to not be rated for +P, now be okay with +P.

When I was in the Army in the early seventies, I owned Taurus' copy of the S&W Model 10. The Taurus forbade the use of +P ammo, and I respected that. Although the gun really was a piece of junk in comparison to the Model 10, it shot fairly well for a gun that sold for $66 at K-Mart. Then one day, I figured I'd try some +P's in this revolver. Just a few rounds, and it actually twisted the barrel in the frame. So the front sight, which was designed to be at roughly 12-o'clock, was now at roughly 12:20.

My story does eventually get to a point. The old Model 36's, Model 10's, 640's, 642's, and more, were not rated for +P's. The same guns, today, are. It's a modern selling feature that folks would insist on before purchasing such a gun.

WAYNO.

 

[Certaindeaf]

There was a time that most American made .38 Special revolvers expressly warned against the use of +P loading. But, back in those days, a +P load was in a spectrum nearing the .38-44, which was kind've an early .357. Todays +P loads do not get any near those velocities or pressures.

But now, many of the revolvers of today that are the closest to the same revolvers of yesteryear, now magically are rated for +P. I do not know what manufacturing changes now allow virtually the same guns that used to not be rated for +P, now be okay with +P.

When I was in the Army in the early seventies, I owned Taurus' copy of the S&W Model 10. The Taurus forbade the use of +P ammo, and I respected that. Although the gun really was a piece of junk in comparison to the Model 10, it shot fairly well for a gun that sold for $66 at K-Mart. Then one day, I figured I'd try some +P's in this revolver. Just a few rounds, and it actually twisted the barrel in the frame. So the front sight, which was designed to be at roughly 12-o'clock, was now at roughly 12:20.

WAYNO.

I bought a brand new S&W M13 .357 magnum years ago with a loose barrel.. I could unscrew it with my hand even before firing the first round.

 

[ma96782]

I wouldn't worry about +P .38 Special ammo used in my M60. *IIRC....S&W once said, it was OK. As long as the model number was stamped on the frame (see it when you opened the cylinder) and if it wasn't a steady diet of it.

*Not speaking about the S&W Airweight or alloy framed revolvers of that time period.

That being said....my off duty M60 (since the late 70's) has been treated that way. Practice rounds were .38 special RNL reloads. But for the serious work, it was a SJHP 125 gr. .38 Special +P. As I remember, it was Remingtons for the first few years. I retired it a few years after we switched to 9mm for duty work. A S&W 3913 took it's place as my off duty firearm.

Here is a story from the S&W Forum pages (posted by:AKAOV1MAN) ......

I hear this a lot, J-Frames, +P or not? I will just give you my and my family experience with the M60 and the M36. Please note that I am not making claims for the older Chiefs Special models, but I firmly believe that they are quite stout weapons, and I routinely use +p in my non numbered Centennial.
My wife is going on almost 30 years of being a big city cop, with 25 of them as a detective in an SVU (as they are now known). She is on the SWAT Team, as a "talker" but she still has to do the monthly SWAT training, including shooting, running, climbing and all that stuff that would no doubt give me a first (and final) cardiac infarction. She has carried a revolver her entire career, she got hired just as semi autos were making an appearance in her department. She chose a revolver and stuck with it. Her first was a M10, which quiclky changed to MY PC tuned M66 no dash. Her off duty/BUG has always been a M36 that is on its 3rd generation of cops. She carries both on duty. She qualifies every month with both. For her entire career she has use the issued 158 gr SWC HP +p ammo (usually supplied by the low bidder). For the last 23 years she has fired 100 rounds a month through her M36 of that +P ammo. She has also used a substanatial quanity of the 110 GR JHP +P+ "treasury load", probably about 1K rounds through that weapon. She shoots the same ammo through the M66, in the same amount.
Both guns are somewhat worn, the M36 has about 50% finish left, but is almost as tight as when it was new, it locks up tightly, with no fore/aft play at all in the cylinder, the timing is perfect. It actually seems in better mechanical condition than the M66. And it is dead bang accurate. She still rountinely outshoots all the guys, particularly in the running shoot, and finishes in almost the same time frame, thanks to both guns being modified for moon clips, she may be no JM, but she can eject and reload either gun in less than a second, usually faster than a semi auto reload. One of the training shoots requires the shooter to jump over a horizontal 55 gal drum, and land and shoot, she fires her last shot just before the jump, and reloads during the jump and comes down during the first shot of the new load.
In short there have been over 21,000 of those +P loads through that M36 and it is still going strong, I have seen "stronger" guns give up after half that many.
Shoot +p through a J frame? Naw, why take a chance.
BTW, there is total domestic bliss in our home.

Anyway, this might also help you to decide....

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Aloha, Mark

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I wouldn't be afraid to use +P in a J frame ...........in 2013!

After so many years I'm older and so much more timid about too much pressure!

 

[Mark W.]

It has been my experience as a handloader and owner of a couple of 2" barrel pistols. Hot loads are a waste of time unless you just want to make a huge ball of fire and blind yourself when you pull the trigger. Remember gun powder burns it does not explode. Accuracy goes to crap with all the powder burning after the slug leaves the barrel. And a 2" barrel is just to short to develop and realize extra velocity with a hotter load.

YMMV

 

[Certaindeaf]

This is why you need a 2" .357 magnum because somehow it magically generates 2-4x the power of a 2" .38.

 

[ma96782]

Old school S&W M60 (no dash number). Note: Filed down frt sight and pinned barrel.



Aloha, Mark

 

[orygun]

I've seen an older Mod 60 (not sure what dash#, but this was 25 years ago and the gun wasn't new then) that changed dramatically after one box of Winchester +p and I owned a prelock 649 that I shot a lot of very healthy 357s through and it was fine. ???
I always wondered if S&W changed the steel they made the guns out of. That could explain the difference between "no +p rating" and 357 Magnum.