36 REASONS WHY MEASURE 114 PASSED BY 24,972 VOTES.

[asiparks]

36 REASONS WHY MEASURE 114 PASSED BY 24,972 VOTES.

...snip...


We got screwed because of voter apathy.

I wouldn't assume that those non-voters were predominantly on the"No" side.
We have to acknowledge that not everyone is as interested in guns or stacking spare P Mags as the members here. And I'm including many gun owners in that.
You can ask " Don't you care about you 2nd amendment rights?!" and they'll reply that of course they do and they'll show you the Glock that they bought in '99 in case the Y2K bug crashed the world; Maybe it's kept loaded, or maybe there's half the box of shells, that they purchased with the gun, in the bedside drawer too. And that's as much as they care or are interested in all things gun.
Arguments over guns, magazine capacity, "Assault Rifle Vs AR facts" are just not things top of mind to care about because there's other everyday sh7t that's more important in their everyday life so if they don't personally want an AR and the news is full of AR related phuckery, then they're probably not going to be an easy "No" on 114
Even on this board of thousands, it's the same 50-100 members regularly involved in these political threads. Extrapolate that over the wider population.

I have enough guns that most of my gun owner friends think I'm a bit special

 

[Cavedweller]

Those machines operate perfectly 100% of the time…always, forever and ever, got it.

My whole point is how do we confirm that a "properly filled out ballot" is making it through the machine correctly, every time, without fail? If we don't get confirmation about the status of each vote on our ballot then we have to trust that receiving the ballot = all of the votes on my ballot counted…or were filled out right the first time, as you put it.

No, they don't work perfectly. Machines make errors. So do humans. Politicians know this. That is why, when results are close (within the margin of error) they ask for recounts. And if the first one doesn't give them the result they want, they ask for another recount. They keep asking for recounts until the margin of error swings in their favor. No two counts are ever the same, whether by machine or by hand.

But that wasn't the question you asked the first time. You asked what if I don't fill the circle completely, or what if I accidentally draw a line through it, or words to that effect. Which is why I responded you should endeavor to not make such mistakes. It's not a perfect world, and all you can do is try to do as much as you can to reduce the possibility of error.

@PiratePast40 says you can find out if your ballot was counted. But I seriously doubt if there is any way to determine how each vote on your ballot was allocated. As I stated before, if that could be done it would not be a secret ballot. If you can figure out a way to do that and still ensure ballot secrecy, you probably should patent your idea. If I'm wrong about this I apologize, but I can't think of a way it could be done.

You can absolutely petition the county clerk to see if your ballot was counted. They know the status of every ballot. One of the barcodes or QR codes, depending on the county, on your envelope matches one of them on your ballot. Anyone with a smartphone can decode either.

That's news to me. Good to know I guess. But unless I misunderstood @smitty007, he was asking if he could find out not only if his ballot was counted, but how each vote on his ballot was allocated, or if each individual vote was counted as he intended. I don't see how that could be done in a secret ballot system.

 

[BuckB]

just because someone didn't vote doesn't mean it was a lost vote for our cause!

Exactly. They're already too lazy to vote. That could also be a sign that their participation wasn't crucial. Possibly detrimental.

 

[PiratePast40]

FWIW, you can request a physical copy of your ballot. When ballot are removed from the envelopes, they are put into a batch and then that batch is fed into the machines. The batch number is recorded so they know where to look for any specific ballot. Doesn't tell you how a specific line was recorded but it does tell you that it's most likely that your ballot was processed.

 

[Buster1969]

Blaming this on voter fraud lets stupid people off the hook. Once you realize we're simply outnumbered by them, it makes things a lot more clear.

I hope the good people of this state are developing an exit plan. I hate to say it, but it's a lost cause.

 

[BuckB]

And toss the process of "ballot/initiative measures". I doubt that some voters even knew the issue at stake. And/or the REAL consequences of their vote.

Not to mention, WHAT the US Constitution says and how it applies to all LAWS.

Aloha, Mark

I don't know about that. How do you feel about being tolled on the interstate? An initiative is going to be the only way to stop them.
votebeforetolls.org

 

[ma96782]

RE : Post #87
Tolls On The Interstate.


First off......



And, I don't wish to offend anyone. Note: This is NOT PERSONAL at all. If someone disagrees with my ideas.......that's OK.



++++++++

So then......
I don't like paying EXTRA taxes......
Especially for the things that could (IMHO) be paid for by just being a little smarter with the Taxpayer's Money (i.e. watching the budget).

Like how some/most of us (probably) do with our household budgets.

Yeah......I believe that there are plenty of social programs that don't need to be funded by the taxpayers. It's about time to have people responsible for their own situations and of course suffer the consequences for their own bad decisions. The GOVT isn't here to guarantee the outcomes for everyone.



BUT, But, but.......
Get back to the toll subject and spending on things.

OK, Ok, ok......
Q : Do we NEED a new Bridge or Interstate?
For this example.....let's say that we need a NEW Bridge or Interstate.

Q : How do we fund its construction?

Consider for a moment.......where some money could be gotten from? Maybe, it might be enough to pay for the entire project.







But wait.......the State will in all likelihood also have to kick in some money.

Hummmm......can you name any state program(s) to cut? I bet that you could.

For example, as a starter......

In OR.
That new law that was just passed, called 114?
Surely it's going to cost a big chunk of money to implement that.

Then in WA.
LOL. Rrrrrright.......they haven't even funded the Bump Stock buybacks yet.

Yeah......how do these unfunded mandates even get this far? Never mind......my wandering off the subject is strong today.

STOP, Stop, stop......
Of course, there are some well-worth projects that won't get done without the taxpayer's money. And building and funding a new Interstate Bridge or Interstate Highway might just/may be one of them.

So then......
Since we elected and pay their salary........a vote by our elected representatives (on the FED and STATE level) is the right way to spend Taxpayer's Money. Otherwise, why do they even have the JOB?

WARNING.....he's straying again.

BUT, But, but......
Maybe the answer is more in.....
Who we vote/voted for?

The entire LEFT coast seems to be full of them.



BUT, But, but.......don't they actually come in all shapes and forms?

YES......RINOs are also a big part of the problem. Awwwww hell.



COUGH, Cough, cough.....

Aloha, Mark

PS......please try not to get all mad.



Anyway.....I think so.

 

[bikemutt]

I pulled in the numbers posted by the OP and added the 114 results by county.

From what I can tell, 114 passed by a very thin 22,563 statewide vote margin.

Looking at the citizens who did not vote by county, and applying the same Yes/No percentage as the citizens who did vote in their county, the net No gain is 3,702 statewide. In other words, even if all the non-voters did vote along the lines as those who voted in their respective counties, 114 would still have passed by a statewide18,861 margin.

If blame needs to be placed somewhere, the numbers don't appear to support placing it on the ambivalent no-shows in this case, not without making questionable assumptions as to how they would've voted.

 

[jayR]

warning offensive language

 

[Crazyeye24]

Just to clarify - you moved out of state. did not complete a ballot. yet when you checked the SOS site, it showed they received your ballot ?

No, it was more of a joke...kinda like once you're dead you always vote Democrat....I checked & it shows my Oregon voting is unregistered since I'm registered in Idaho.

 

[Rkangel]

My grandmother received ballots from Arizona for a long time after she moved to Oregon, and continued to receive Oregon ballots after she died. I don't remember how many times we had to send documentation of her death before they stopped mailing ballots. How many dishonest families, caretakers, or nursing homes does it take before we have a serious problem? Too late, because clearly neither State has made any effort to correct the voter roles....
But I'm sure this election was totally on the up and up.... Clackamas county alone should give everyone in this state some concerns.

 

[MichaelH]

My grandmother received ballots from Arizona for a long time after she moved to Oregon, and continued to receive Oregon ballots after she died. I don't remember how many times we had to send documentation of her death before they stopped mailing ballots. How many dishonest families, caretakers, or nursing homes does it take before we have a serious problem? Too late, because clearly neither State has made any effort to correct the voter roles....
But I'm sure this election was totally on the up and up.... Clackamas county alone should give everyone in this state some concerns.

The signatures still need to match for an proper vote to be counted.

 

[Rkangel]

The signatures still need to match for an proper vote to be counted.

Sure. That's what they claim.

And the same nursing home that was eventually busted for insurance fraud, identity theft, and stealing patient meds, would never have considered forging other signatures, too.

 

[jayR]

Some people still seem to think there are big problems.. this is a month old but relevant none the less.
https://www.yamhilladvocate.com/202...ficials-alleging-voter-fraud-and-suppression/

 

[MichaelH]

Sure. That's what they claim.

And the same nursing home that was eventually busted for insurance fraud, identity theft, and stealing patient meds, would never have considered forging other signatures, too.

A crime risks jail time. IMO that's what makes no sense to me in comparing voter fraud to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud is motivated by greed and bad actors will risk jail if caught for sufficient amounts of $. Jail for A vote?! That's pretty unlikely. Sure each of our votes is important, in the abstract, but one, two, heck, even 50 votes almost never makes a difference except in small town local elections. That's why, for example, when an extremely partisan family member illegally votes for an elderly parent who lacks capacity but holds different views, that particular instance of voter fraud really doesn't matter in election outcomes. If I'm a crooked politician or interest group, how would I possibly be able to pay enough per vote to motivate any person or group of people to risk real jail time to fraudulently forge and collect enough votes to matter, and even if I had George Soros level resources, how could I do it and not create a paper trail that would increase the chance of discovery and possible prosecution?

The relative insignificance of each individual vote is the likely reason significant amounts of voter fraud have never been discovered, even when carefully investigated by law enforcement OR private actors. Even in 2020 with FBI, various state law enforcement agencies and private actors like Cyber Ninjas, etc., investigating election fraud, the changing of or improperly casting votes wasn't found with the frequency to change anything.

In 2020, the main legal challenges to the validity of larger batches of votes, were whether certain votes should be counted, under a variety of state laws, based on how they were cast, or collected or when they were received, which really isn't actual fraud. Voter fraud is now a perceived risk in America, not because significant fraud was found, rather the challenges to the swing states election processes were justified on the basis that there might be fraud that would be harder to detect because of increased mail-in voting opportunities. Other challenges to election outcomes or claims of election unfairness tend to be challenges to state and local laws, or county election decisions that make it harder for otherwise qualified voters to actually vote. Generally those claims are that laws and elections board/officials' decisions unfairly have a negative impact on legitimate voters within certain demographic groups to make it harder for them to vote than members of other demographic groups to discourage the participation of certain voters and encourage the participation of other voters.

Obviously if there are extremely smart and rich people who can locate dishonest people in the election system, perhaps to game counting systems, etc., that could be a way for actual voter fraud to occur, but whether the ballots are mailed or cast in person on election day wouldn't matter if that kind of fix was in.

I believe anything that improves/increases public participation in government, since it's supposed to be run by us is a good thing, even if I'm a judgmental b—tard that thinks that the average voter ain't that bright. Vote by mail achieves that and eliminates possible unfairness in HOW the election is conducted.

 

[jayR]

A crime risks jail time. IMO that's what makes no sense to me in comparing voter fraud to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud is motivated by greed and bad actors will risk jail if caught for sufficient amounts of $. Jail for A vote?! That's pretty unlikely. Sure each of our votes is important, in the abstract, but one, two, heck, even 50 votes almost never makes a difference except in small town local elections. That's why, for example, when an extremely partisan family member illegally votes for an elderly parent who lacks capacity but holds different views, that particular instance of voter fraud really doesn't matter in election outcomes. If I'm a crooked politician or interest group, how would I possibly be able to pay enough per vote to motivate any person or group of people to fraudulently forge and collect enough votes to matter, and not create a paper trail that would increase the chance of discovery and possible prosecution? The relative insignificance of each individual vote is the likely reason significant amounts of voter fraud have never been discovered, even when carefully investigated by law enforcement OR private actors. Even in 2020 with FBI, various state law enforcement agencies and private actors like Cyber Ninjas, etc., investigating election fraud, the changing of or improperly casting votes wasn't found with the frequency to change anything. In 2020, the main legal challenges to the validity of larger batches of votes, were whether certain votes should be counted, under a variety of state laws, based on how they were cast, or collected or when they were received.

I think with that wall of text you may be missing the facts;
https://electionfraud20.org/in-detail/maricopa-arizona-forensic-audit-report-results/

 

[bbdaddy]

A crime risks jail time. IMO that's what makes no sense to me in comparing voter fraud to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud is motivated by greed and bad actors will risk jail if caught for sufficient amounts of $. Jail for A vote?! That's pretty unlikely. Sure each of our votes is important, in the abstract, but one, two, heck, even 50 votes almost never makes a difference except in small town local elections. That's why, for example, when an extremely partisan family member illegally votes for an elderly parent who lacks capacity but holds different views, that particular instance of voter fraud really doesn't matter in election outcomes. If I'm a crooked politician or interest group, how would I possibly be able to pay enough per vote to motivate any person or group of people to risk real jail time to fraudulently forge and collect enough votes to matter, and even if I had George Soros level resources, how could I do it and not create a paper trail that would increase the chance of discovery and possible prosecution?

The relative insignificance of each individual vote is the likely reason significant amounts of voter fraud have never been discovered, even when carefully investigated by law enforcement OR private actors. Even in 2020 with FBI, various state law enforcement agencies and private actors like Cyber Ninjas, etc., investigating election fraud, the changing of or improperly casting votes wasn't found with the frequency to change anything.

In 2020, the main legal challenges to the validity of larger batches of votes, were whether certain votes should be counted, under a variety of state laws, based on how they were cast, or collected or when they were received, which really isn't actual fraud. Voter fraud is now a perceived risk in America, not because significant fraud was found, rather the challenges to the swing states election processes were justified on the basis that there might be fraud that would be harder to detect because of increased mail-in voting opportunities. Other challenges to election outcomes or claims of election unfairness tend to be challenges to state and local laws, or county election decisions that make it harder for otherwise qualified voters to actually vote. Generally those claims are that laws and elections board/officials' decisions unfairly have a negative impact on legitimate voters within certain demographic groups to make it harder for them to vote than members of other demographic groups to discourage the participation of certain voters and encourage the participation of other voters.

Obviously if there are extremely smart and rich people who can locate dishonest people in the election system, perhaps to game counting systems, etc., that could be a way for actual voter fraud to occur, but whether the ballots are mailed or cast in person on election day wouldn't matter if that kind of fix was in.

I believe anything that improves/increases public participation in government, since it's supposed to be run by us is a good thing, even if I'm a judgmental b—tard that thinks that the average voter ain't that bright. Vote by mail achieves that and eliminates possible unfairness in HOW the election is conducted.

I have also historically assumed that this argument meant voter fraud must be a non-issue. I am also convinced that turnout was more important wrt this vote than any padding or shenanigans... but when it's this close, it matters.

I have been more skeptical lately after MyVote showed that my mother voted posthumously in 2016 and 2018. It was a bureaucratic nightmare to get the state to take her off the rolls. I almost didn't follow through. She passed away in OR, for the record.

It is absurd that we can't afford to implement a system that is more transparent and secure. I don't buy that it is too difficult or expensive.

 

[nwslopoke]

I'm sure just

The signatures still need to match for an proper vote to be coun

The signatures still need to match for an proper vote to be counted.

A crime risks jail time. IMO that's what makes no sense to me in comparing voter fraud to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud is motivated by greed and bad actors will risk jail if caught for sufficient amounts of $. Jail for A vote?! That's pretty unlikely. Sure each of our votes is important, in the abstract, but one, two, heck, even 50 votes almost never makes a difference except in small town local elections. That's why, for example, when an extremely partisan family member illegally votes for an elderly parent who lacks capacity but holds different views, that particular instance of voter fraud really doesn't matter in election outcomes. If I'm a crooked politician or interest group, how would I possibly be able to pay enough per vote to motivate any person or group of people to risk real jail time to fraudulently forge and collect enough votes to matter, and even if I had George Soros level resources, how could I do it and not create a paper trail that would increase the chance of discovery and possible prosecution?

The relative insignificance of each individual vote is the likely reason significant amounts of voter fraud have never been discovered, even when carefully investigated by law enforcement OR private actors. Even in 2020 with FBI, various state law enforcement agencies and private actors like Cyber Ninjas, etc., investigating election fraud, the changing of or improperly casting votes wasn't found with the frequency to change anything.

In 2020, the main legal challenges to the validity of larger batches of votes, were whether certain votes should be counted, under a variety of state laws, based on how they were cast, or collected or when they were received, which really isn't actual fraud. Voter fraud is now a perceived risk in America, not because significant fraud was found, rather the challenges to the swing states election processes were justified on the basis that there might be fraud that would be harder to detect because of increased mail-in voting opportunities. Other challenges to election outcomes or claims of election unfairness tend to be challenges to state and local laws, or county election decisions that make it harder for otherwise qualified voters to actually vote. Generally those claims are that laws and elections board/officials' decisions unfairly have a negative impact on legitimate voters within certain demographic groups to make it harder for them to vote than members of other demographic groups to discourage the participation of certain voters and encourage the participation of other voters.

Obviously if there are extremely smart and rich people who can locate dishonest people in the election system, perhaps to game counting systems, etc., that could be a way for actual voter fraud to occur, but whether the ballots are mailed or cast in person on election day wouldn't matter if that kind of fix was in.

I believe anything that improves/increases public participation in government, since it's supposed to be run by us is a good thing, even if I'm a judgmental b—tard that thinks that the average voter ain't that bright. Vote by mail achieves that and eliminates possible unfairness in HOW the election is conducted.

Well, as long as there was only a little fraud, what harm could it do? That's the rule isn't it? A little fraud is ok?

 

[MichaelH]

I'm sure just



Well, as long as there was only a little fraud, what harm could it do? That's the rule isn't it? A little fraud is ok?

A little IS acceptable. What's worse for democracy: 100 people successfully forge their Grandma's signature and vote twice, or 10000 don't vote because they couldn't get off work/ had kid issues/ didn't have transport? There are always some dishonest people who might forge a ballot and it'd be foolish not to acknowledge that. When elections were all in person, surely there were people who voted who shouldn't have. The point is any one individual vote isn't going to change an election outcome. Some of us are too lazy or apathetic to even bother to vote our own ballots despite how easy Oregon makes it.

 

[03A3Sporter]

A little IS acceptable. What's worse for democracy: 100 people successfully forge their Grandma's signature and vote twice, or 10000 don't vote because they couldn't get off work/ had kid issues/ didn't have transport? There are always some dishonest people who might forge a ballot and it'd be foolish not to acknowledge that. When elections were all in person, surely there were people who voted who shouldn't have. The point is any one individual vote isn't going to change an election outcome. Some of us are too lazy or apathetic to even bother to vote our own ballots despite how easy Oregon makes it.

You just hit on your problem and why I don't live in Oregon anymore . People love to bandy the word democracy about , America wasn't every intended to be a democracy and has slowly been transitioning into one . Democracy is how you ended up with this 114 nonsense .

51% can always bully the other 49% into what they want to do at the ballot box .

6 or so counties deciding what everyone else has to do is not equal representation by any means and proof that a mob can take a dump on your rights just was fast as a small group or a dictator can .