36 REASONS WHY MEASURE 114 PASSED BY 24,972 VOTES.

[jayR]

A little IS acceptable. What's worse for democracy: 100 people successfully forge their Grandma's signature and vote twice, or 10000 don't vote because they couldn't get off work/ had kid issues/ didn't have transport? There are always some dishonest people who might forge a ballot and it'd be foolish not to acknowledge that. When elections were all in person, surely there were people who voted who shouldn't have. The point is any one individual vote isn't going to change an election outcome. Some of us are too lazy or apathetic to even bother to vote our own ballots despite how easy Oregon makes it.

No offense but your argument is a false dichotomy, sprinkled with a little straw man.

 

[Xaevian]

No offense but your argument is a false dichotomy, sprinkled with a little straw man.

Sucking a dichotomy through a straw?

 

[jayR]

Question is are these 'people' for real ?

 

[nwslopoke]

Question is are these 'people' for real ?

The original response was for me but I didn't want a pointless argument. Whether it was sincere or not, I spent a lot of years with folks who think that way. Until they age out, have kids or get hit in the face, they will continue to believe in that system.

 

[jayR]

whoops. guess I took the bait and swam with it.
sometimes they are so bright and shiny, can't help myself..
where's vinnie ?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

whoops. guess I took the bait and swam with it.
sometimes they are so bright and shiny, can't help myself..
where's vinnie ?

Working, why? Did I miss something?

 

[jayR]

My day is just starting to get busy so I only had a chance to skim that. Thanks for the link. I will look at it tomorrow as soon as I have time to do more than just glance at it

Just wondering where the critique you promised is ?

 

[bbdaddy]

No offense but your argument is a false dichotomy, sprinkled with a little straw man.

That's the potential issue: false dichotomy. We can be concerned with protecting the sanctity of the vote from both angles.

I would be the first supporter of making a voting day a full on holiday. It's a sacred American rite, and should also be a right.

Generally, I would agree with that idea that fraud is unimportant if we could assume that the scale is unimportant. I used to make that same argument.

After my mom voted from beyond the grave, I became a lot less sure it's unimportant in Oregon.

Long story short, my sister and I talked about it, and there's only one "theory of the crime" that makes sense. It was not a "conspiracy" or anything, but it was just way too easy for a certain individual to get her ballots and drop them in the mail. And it's nigh impossible, certainly impractical, to verify them, and not in any timely way that could count in the context of an election.

A sympathetic sheriff's office explained to us why building a case and prosecuting this sort of thing is outside the realm of possibility.

I don't think we can really know the scale. The argument that voter fraud is self-limiting might apply better where a person *must* do it in person.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i have 1 reason to add. its the F word that rhymes with "dudds"

 

[Rkangel]

Some people may be ok with voter fraud...hey, I guess if you like the possibility of your vote being stolen or nullified at any time, then you do you.

But to me even a little voter fraud is not ok. Because maybe, just maybe, the issues with voter fraud have also contributed to low voter participation by disillusioned people who no longer feel their vote counts, or is counted properly.

 

[Xaevian]

Some people may be ok with voter fraud...hey, I guess if you like the possibility of your vote being stolen or nullified at any time, then you do you.

But to me even a little voter fraud is not ok. Because maybe, just maybe, the issues with voter fraud have also contributed to low voter participation by disillusioned people who no longer feel their vote counts, or is counted properly.

The issue is that it's really a nonissue. It's pretty much a red herring, impossible to ever know the extent, and likely evenly distributed out for both major parties. Participation is relatively similar to other mid election cycles or slightly higher. Focus is better spent on illegal/unethical election spending and influencing.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Just wondering where the critique you promised is ?

Oh. OK, fair enough. Here it is:

I asked for evidence and instead what was presented was more of the same unsubstantiated noise that ads nothing to the claim that fraud took place. It was like if Conformation Bias and "I don't understand how anything works so it must be fraud" had a baby

Not going lie, I was really disappointed and expected better

But the important thing is, and kind of my point through all of this

WHAT I OR YOU THINK ABOUT THAT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHEN IT COMES TO 114!!!!

Except everyone is running around playing No True Scotsman and driving away anyone that has even a minor difference of opinion on political or social issues that ONLY have anything to do with 114 because No True Scotsman Supporter of 2A Would Fell That Way About That Particular Issue

People are complex and have lots of views and opinions on lots of topics for lots of reasons. If we can't accept that and work together on the issue that we do aggrege on (in this case 114) we will drive away more people than we bring to the table, and I don't care how much "product" you sell. if you are selling at a loss, you will never make it up in volume

 

[Rkangel]

The issue is that it's really a nonissue. It's pretty much a red herring, impossible to ever know the extent, and likely evenly distributed out for both major parties. Participation is relatively similar to other mid election cycles or slightly higher. Focus is better spent on illegal/unethical election spending and influencing.

Agreed. I was responding to another post but quote apparently didn't work.

We can't prove or dis-prove participation as a factor, but all of the illegal and unethical shadiness isn't helping, based on feedback I've heard from several other voters who are sliding into the "Why bother? They'll just cheat anyway." Camp. Which in itself could be considered a form of voter suppression.

 

[jayR]

Data point - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/oregons-voter-turnout-led-nation-in-2022-election/ar-AA161i08

or

https://www.opb.org/article/2023/01/05/oregon-voter-turnout-highest-in-us-general-election-2022/

conjecture - They needed so many Ghost voters to swing it their way..

 

[RVTECH]

Another additional reason for 114 passing is the sheer number of people who simply do not vote.

I routinely encounter people who claim to be 'Pro 2a patriots' yet admit to not voting for a variety of reasons (most of which pretty lame but nevertheless)

And to top it off a lot of these people also had no idea 114 was even on the ballot until they heard about it passing later in the news, from other people etc.

Ok, I may sound a little judgemental but a lot of these people ain't particularly 'mainstream' types and well, probably dont know what day of the week it is, and some may have simply been trapped under the rock they live under, and I guarantee there are examples of these types all over the state. I'm only accounting for the ones I encounter and it's still a bunch.

Bottom line is I'll bet if only 50% of the non voters HAD voted it wouldn't have passed.

 

[GrayGoose]

Another additional reason for 114 passing is the sheer number of people who simply do not vote.

I routinely encounter people who claim to be 'Pro 2a patriots' yet admit to not voting for a variety of reasons (most of which pretty lame but nevertheless)

And to top it off a lot of these people also had no idea 114 was even on the ballot until they heard about it passing later in the news, from other people etc.

Ok, I may sound a little judgemental but a lot of these people ain't particularly 'mainstream' types and well, probably dont know what day of the week it is, and some may have simply been trapped under the rock they live under, and I guarantee there are examples of these types all over the state. I'm only accounting for the ones I encounter and it's still a bunch.

Bottom line is I'll bet if only 50% of the non voters HAD voted it wouldn't have passed.

What's 114?

 

[SonicBlue03]

Of course a lot of these non-voters might be dead or moved away, but 10's of thousands failed to do their civic duty and now you're stuck with this.

SMH

Dead voters vote Democrat. Everyone knows that.

 

[jayR]

Old thread.. My post 114 had some broken links..

The gist is this - Primary in May 2022 had extremely low turnout
https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/...ion-oregon-voter-turnout-lags-past-primaries/
yet this happened in November.
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/01/05/oregon-voter-turnout-highest-in-us-general-election-2022/

Hmmmm. why would that happen ?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Old thread.. My post 114 had some broken links..

The gist is this - Primary in May 2022 had extremely low turnout
https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/...ion-oregon-voter-turnout-lags-past-primaries/
yet this happened in November.
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/01/05/oregon-voter-turnout-highest-in-us-general-election-2022/

Hmmmm. why would that happen ?

Its because the May Primary is closed to other than the two National Parties, whereas the November General Election is open to all eligible voters.

 

[Stomper]

Of course a lot of these non-voters might be dead or moved away, but 10's of thousands failed to do their civic duty and now you're stuck with this.

SMH

Or ballots got tossed..

Or padded, as the case may be…

ORRRRR…… the non-voters (rural counties in particular) were on a 2-week fentanyl high and missed the whole damned show!