300 blackout 220 grain Berry’s with CFE Black

[agbrownmc]

For starters, I am new at reloading. I have done a ton of research on subsonic load data. Which powders are best. Which primers, etc. I ended up starting a load using Berry's 220 grain with CFE BLK and CCI #400 SRP.

Here's my question plus explanation for the group (and it might be long winded):
Every load manual i have seen, seems like 16" barrel is understood barrel length for the data. I am loading for an 8" barreled AR with a 1:8 twist. So that being said l, I have searched for info on forums to see what others are doing and I have found some data on 220's with CFE.

So I started load development using the grain weight recommendation from Sierra since they publish for free and they have a 220 grain bullet (although not same exact shape). They said 11.8 grains of CFE yields 1050 and 13.4 yields 1250. Again I'm assuming this is for 16".
So I started at 11.1 grains and got 761FPS avg. I guesstimated that 1 grain is about 75-100 FPS and bumped up the load to 13.0 grains. Then I got 914 FPS avg. So I added another grain to 14.1 total and got 954 FPS avg.
Here is the interesting part, it was a dime sized group at 33yds. I couldn't believe it. If my 308 bolt gun shot that group I would have been impressed.
I already had 5 rounds of 14.3 grains loaded so I shot those and the avg was 1048 but the group opened up to 1.5"-2.0".

So all that being said for the back story, I think these grain loads are very high. Does this make since to someone that has loaded 220 grain with CFE BlK?? I have seen others post data of 10.5-11.5 grains CFE BLK giving them 1000-1050 FPS in an 8" barrel. What am I missing and what's going on? The only thing that I can't measure scientifically is the crimp. I am wondering if I am not crimping enough/properly/or at all. If my crimp was too light or nonexistent, would this be the reason I need 2.5-3.0 more grains of powder???
More info: I'm using the Hornandy full length resizing die, that is supposed to be crimping. I set it up exactly like their YouTube tutorial showed. And I watched it 10x, but still don't get the feeling that it is working properly. I'm also not sure if the Caldwell G2 chronograph is 100%. During the testing I had many Error messages throughout the day. I played with it until I brought it closer to the gun and started getting consistent readings.

Any advice on the subject would be appreciated. And I didn't say it before but all loads had positive bolt lock back and zero feeding issues. I also seated to 2.20 OAL. Thanks.

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[osprey]

What is the length of the berry's bullet compared to the the bullet used in the data? Also different headstamps have different case capacities which could skew the results. I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle about it and explore that 14.1gr region. Maybe try 14.2 gr? I like staying right around the 1000fps region for subs as I have found if you push towards 1100fps too far, you will have rounds occasionally go super sonic in some weather conditions.

P.S. I just looked it up, the sierra bullets are almost .140" longer than the berrys. You are seating .010" deeper than the sierra data so your bullet is intruding on the powder charge .130" less. In a small case like 300blk that is a big difference and would totally explain your results. Welcome to the rabbit hole of reloading!

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i load for 300 blackout and i have loaded a lot of them. you are getting good results. id stick with what works and what groups well for you. keep in mind the published data may be at a different elevation as you. also yes, the data may be out of a 16" barrel. they also may be using magnum primers. lots of variables.

i never crimp any of my rifle rounds except for lever action 30-30.

 

[agbrownmc]

What is the length of the berry's bullet compared to the the bullet used in the data? Also different headstamps have different case capacities which could skew the results. I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle about it and explore that 14.1gr region. Maybe try 14.2 gr? I like staying right around the 1000fps region for subs as I have found if you push towards 1100fps too far, you will have rounds occasionally go super sonic in some weather conditions.

P.S. I just looked it up, the sierra bullets are almost .140" longer than the berrys. You are seating .010" deeper than the sierra data so your bullet is intruding on the powder charge .130" less. In a small case like 300blk that is a big difference and would totally explain your results. Welcome to the rabbit hole of reloading!

Thanks for the reply. I will try out 2.25 seating depth. I also ordered a Lee factory crimp die and will see how that changes things.

 

[223to45]

I just loaded a whole bunch using CFE Blk and Berrys 220

12.2 grs of CFE, was getting about 1000fps, from a 8.5" barrel.

i am out of CFE BLK so now it is on to AA1680

 

[BrandonQuixote]

I load mine almost identically. I use a powder that has the exact burn rate as CFE BLK and very close to Accurate 1680, its WC680. Almost identical but supposedly with more flash suppressant. I use 12.1 grains and im just under 1050fps on a 75-80 degree day. When it as 35 degrees at my spot last week. my 10" was only getting 900fps. I see on your screenshot, you also are shooting in cold weather. Some powders are greatly affected by temperature. Ball powders like CFE BLK being one of them, cold weather will essentially slow down your powder, burn rate lessens with increased barometric pressure. Crimp, in my eyes does two things- It prevents set back in higher recoiling, high rate of fire guns. It also creates a uniformity when it comes to pressure. I do crimp my 220gr berry's and its helped significantly with my SD. Also keep in mind reloading data isn't an exact input : output science- there's a lot of small variables that can lead you to shooting under or over published data for similar results. Another issues is case fill. with only 12.1 grains you may not be getting optimal ignition depending on where the powder is in the case. Magnum primers MIGHT help with that, ive only ever seen them tighten up my SD a little, so i dont bother. Never seen them perform better with ball powder as other people swear by. Please be careful shooting low powder charges of subsonics if youre using a suppressor. I had some SERIOUS stability issues when i was working up my loads and luckily was smart enough to shoot with the can OFF before i could get them stabilized. Heavier bullets like a faster twist to stay stable- especially at relatively low, e.g Sub sonic velocities.

 

[rabidmullet]

I've only done a small amount of load development with CFE BLK/220gr Berry's and my 7.5" barrel. I'm sure I'll do a lot more once my suppressor gets out of jail, which fingers crossed should be any day.

LC converted brass
WSR primers
2.10" OAL / CBTO: 1.540
I use the Lee FCD but I'm only removing the slight bell I put in before seating the 220gr bullet. 5 round avg:

12.1gr = 950fps
12.3gr = 970fps
12.6gr = 1000fps

 

[osprey]

After reading these posts I think you have several things in play. The difference in the length of bullet as I mentioned earlier, deviation from cases and possibly primers, and finally burn rate of powder varying lot to lot. Whenever I run out of powder for an established load, when I buy more of the same powder with a different lot #, I often have to make tweaks to get same velocity and good burn numbers (es and sd). But again don't worry too much as long as you are getting consistent results. I would experiment with shorter coal not longer to possibly get more efficiency from the powder.

 

[dmatzinger]

i have chased 300 black out subs for quite some time. I started with CFE blk, but ultimately found accurate 1680 to have the best std dev and tightest groups.
I will spare you the pages of data, but this was my best and final,
hornady 225 eld match
CCI small rifle primer magnum
Lake city brass cut down from 223

9/16/2021 16" Bolt	Shot 1	2​	3​	4​	5​	Average	Std Dev
225 hdry ELD Match 10.3 ACCURATE 1680	980​	978​	979​	977​	976​	978​	1.414214​

c.o.l 2.25"
Shot out of a SA ruger in an MDT chassis

 

[dmatzinger]

At 100 yards

 

[aasbra]

In my 300 blk bolt action CZ 527 with 16" barrel, I had better chrono data and groups with 1680 and Lil gun than I did with CFE blackout for the 220 grain subsonic loads I typically shoot. While testing was limited, during the same range session I tried ladder loads with all 3 powders with the same brass, bullets and primers.

I would like to try some other loads when I get time with the CFE BLK powder. However, my initial testing with this powder for the sub loads I typically shoot left me reaching for one of the other two powder options I have used in the BLK for subsonic loading.

 

[oneillj]

I reloaded about 400 rounds with the same bullets but I used Accurate 11fs with 9.4grs and oal 2.089 not sure of my velocities, definitely subsonic with a 9" barrel. I didn't chrono and groups at 50 were probably an inch. Consistently rang 8" steel at 150yrds.

 

[Xodus]

Interesting results. I load for a few 8" guns and shoot them suppressed. I found my ideal load with the 220g Berry's (mixed headstamps) is 12.0 CFE with about .002 neck tension. Sorry I don't recall my OAL at the moment and I'm out of state, but seem to reckon it was similar to some of the other posts here. I'm getting on average around 1000-1050fps (pending on the conditions) and occasionally getting one that will just touch the sound barrier. I've noticed the same rounds out of my AAC handi rifle (16" barrel) are similar in velocity, hugging more towards that supersonic barrier.

IMO the neck tension you have and bullet seating on sub rounds plays a significant difference. I've loaded multiple sub rounds for dozens of guns and have had to continually fine tune load until I come up with a happy medium. During that time I've noticed if you have rounds right around the sound barrier you typically see a drop off in accuracy (with some being sub and some being super). There are multiple write ups online you can cruise about the effects of the sound barrier and bullets flight being impacted by crossing it.

Try playing around with the neck tension and seating depth and see if that changes anything. If you don't have enough neck tension when the bullets are being picked up out of a mag on a gas gun that could be seating bullets deeper without you noticing (just a possibility) and may be causing some of your problems.

Either way let us know what you find out. I always enjoy incorporating others findings into my process.. and as previously said welcome to the rabbit hole lol

 

[agbrownmc]

Thanks for all the replies.
I think I have pretty much figured it all out.
I tested with my new Lee crimp die and without.
With suppressor and without.
Long story short, I will be crimping from now on.
The suppressor added about 100 + FPS and the crimp added about 70 FPS (the data below has exact numbers)
I also tried H110 and really liked it and had excellent results.
Side note, with the 8" AR I never had feeding, ejecting or bolt lock back issues with any load I tried. I guess my gun is a whore, has a huge hole (gas port) and likes everything.

(8 inch AR barrel, pistol length gas, 1:8 twist, 8" k can suppressor)

To start the testing, I had 10 of the previously loaded 14.1 grains of CFE BLK loads. All seated to 2.20. I crimped 5 of them with the new Lee crimper and left the other 5 uncrimped. As expected the suppressor added about 130 FPS and the crimp added another 70FPS. So with the suppressor the previous subsonic load (954fps) went (1082fps) and grouped just as well 5 shots touching. The 5 rounds I crimped went super at (1155fps) and had the exact same ragged hole group at 35 yds.

(No crimp No suppressor)
Created: 11/17/21 15:08
Description: 14.1 CFE BLK Berry's 220 gr
Notes 1: 2.20 OAL
Notes 2: 8" 1:8 twist
Distance to Chrono(FT): 5.00
Bullet Weight(gr): 220.00
Temp: 33 °F
BP: 1026.40 inHg
Altitude: 2500.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
4 939 430.79 206.58
3 1013 501.37 222.86
2 922 415.34 202.84
1 942 433.55 207.24
Average: 954.0 FPS
SD: 40.3 FPS
Min: 922 FPS
Max: 1013 FPS
Spread: 91 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.4
True MV: inf FPS
Group Size (in): 0.25

(Crimped with suppressor)

Created: 11/24/21 13:39
Description: CFE BLK14.1 CFE Berry's 220 GR
Notes 1: WITH CRIMP
Notes 2: WITH SUPPRESSOR
Distance to Chrono(FT): 5.00
Ballistic Coefficient: .517
Bullet Weight(gr): 220.00
Temp: 34 °F
BP: 1029.00 inHg
Altitude: 2500
# FPS FT-LBS PF
4 1152 652.01 254.28
3 1160 661.09 255.70
2 1165 663.12 256.30
1 1146 641.66 252.12
Average: 1155.5 FPS
SD: 7.4 FPS
Min: 1146 FPS
Max: 1165 FPS
Spread: 19 FPS
Shot/sec: 1.0
True MV: 1156 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.25

After watching YouTube's Ultimate Reloader episode where he used H110 and Berry's 220 gr load, I decided to test that. It shot very well and grouped very well. 2.23 OAL

Created: 11/24/21 13:41
Description: 10.0g 2.23 OAL H110 Berry's 220gr
Notes 1: With suppressor
Notes 2: 8" barrel 1:8 twist
Distance to Chrono(FT): 5.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.517
Bullet Weight(gr): 220.00
Temp: 35 °F
BP: 1029.00 inHg
Altitude: 2500
# FPS FT-LBS PF
3 999 487.61 219.78
2 992 480.80 218.24
1 1023 511.32 225.06
Average: 1004.7 FPS
SD: 16.3 FPS
Min: 992 FPS
Max: 1023 FPS
Spread: 31 FPS
Shot/sec: 1.0
True MV: 1005 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.25

 

[JJE76]

I just loaded a whole bunch using CFE Blk and Berrys 220

12.2 grs of CFE, was getting about 1000fps, from a 8.5" barrel.

i am out of CFE BLK so now it is on to AA1680

What loads did you end up with, accurate 1680?

 

[Lukevv]

I just loaded a whole bunch using CFE Blk and Berrys 220

12.2 grs of CFE, was getting about 1000fps, from a 8.5" barrel.

i am out of CFE BLK so now it is on to AA1680

What was over all cartridge length

 

[223to45]

What loads did you end up with, accurate 1680?

Sorry missed this post, haven't loaded with the A1680 yet, loads should be similar

 

[223to45]

What was over all cartridge length

Don't remember, but I can check later, I still have some.

 

[Lukevv]

Don't remember, but I can check later, I still have some.

Thanks

 

[agbrownmc]

Thanks

I posted all the COAL on the thread above.
2.23" is usually my starting length for the long heavy subs.