2cents on Dudley brown?

[Dave Workman]

Kudos Dave on the first part.
The second is trying to sugar coat the opponents tactics that people don't see as fanatics or fringe type actions.
Liberals are fine with giving away what others have but not what they have.....

I don't "sugar coat" anything. I'm merely diplomatic rather than in-your-face. It leads to a more harmonious conclusion.

 

[MikeE]

you still don't get it.

theres a large number of people who could be persuaded to our side.

if you guys would STOP ACTING LIKE IDIOTS AND ALIENATING THEM!

Groucho Marx in 'Duck Soup' as prosecutor trying 'Chicolini' for espionage:
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury: Chicolini may look like an idiot. He may act like an idiot. He may talk like an idiot. But don't let that fool you. He really IS an idiot!"

 

[usagi]

there is always going to be some hardcore element you will not be able to convince, ever. you can't waste your time with them.

you are looking for people toward the middle.

it's hard to know what someone will be receptive to, but i can tell you for sure what they will NOT be receptive to.

here's some ideas you can use to persuade liberal minded folk.

self defense is a civil right. it is also a right protected by the constitution. the US is one of the few countries where individual self defense is in the constitution. many other countries do not have a right to self defense -- japan is one example. in japan, self defense is not a right! it can only be a mitigating factor when the state charges you. the second amendment protects not just firearms, but any weapon of any kind - even a pencil. it is a codified right to self defense.

weakening one right puts the rest at risk. if you can license one constitutional right, you have established legal precedent to make it easier to license them all. legislators continually try to push licensing schemes on voting and free speech. why would anyone want to make it easier for them?

the police are not required by law to protect individuals. the courts have repeatedly ruled that police cannot be held liable for failing to act, and are in fact totally legally immune. it is of course bad form, and they would likely get fired. but they face no civil or criminal liability for doing nothing. this is a big eye opener for some.

violence in society is an issue. but we need to focus less on what "they" have access to, and focus more on why "they" consider violence, suicide, murder as the easy answer.

 

[Caveman Jim]

[QUOTDave Workman, post: 1171531, member: 8958"]First, let's practice a bit of cordiality rather than confrontation.[/QUOTE]


Just asking a question, how is that confrontational?

He was quick to call names so he should put up or... you know the drill.

 

[usagi]

Liberals are fine with giving away what others have but not what they have.....

and you don't see how you could use this to your advantage?

make it an issue of self-interest for them. if something they value can be at risk, they will be more likely to defend it.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I have always said that gun violence is caused by criminals, the mentally impaired and the justice department's inability to prosecute said vermin to the fullest extent of the law.
They should concentrate their efforts on this instead of painting law abiding citizens as the criminals who need taming.

 

[U201491]

the problem is that there are still a bunch of people on the fence who could be persuaded to our side. we NEED them on our side!

by being rude, confrontational, and abrasive, you are converting them to antis as well! you're being harmful to our cause.

why can't you understand that?

you're deluding yourself if you believe all the fights can take place in the courts. you're deluding yourself if you believe the courts are immune to public opinion.

this initiative process is the new game. and it's ALL about public opinion. you're gonna get us all screwed.

this is NOT "compromise". if you truly believe that, then you're truly lost.



gun owners are frequently our own worst enemy. want to know why people dislike us? just look at how we behave.

this continued rude, confrontational, antagonistic behavior will end up converting everyone into anti's.

it needs to stop.

You have no clue how I project to people I contact out here.
On the forum, people are here for 2 reasons. They are pro gun or trending that direction. Or they are here in camo intending , in which case they are here to do harm and deserve no politeness.
Not compromising can be done without "rudeness" Don't assume, or presume you understand how people conduct their business unless you are there first hand. I have been in this fight for over 50 of my years here and do well at converting people that can be converted. Lost causes, I no longer waste time on. You can only save the savable. When recruiting I have signed hundreds into the NRA, and other orgs. You save some you lose some, but doing something without compromise is not difficult. That is the first thing people understand when conversing with me. Our cause is just and compromise is no longer necessary.
I am not particularly fond of those that think they need to compromise my rights away either !
Go ASSume.......... someone else.

 

[U201491]

Kudos Dave on the first part.
The second is trying to sugar coat the opponents tactics that people don't see as fanatics or fringe type actions.
Liberals are fine with giving away what others have but not what they have.....

I agree with the liberal analogy, liberals excel at giving other people's liberty, rights, and property away. Seldom do they include their own. They will gladly take yours and others. Seldom do any of them contribute to the pot, and most of the time they just take what others earned.

 

[Caveman Jim]

and you don't see how you could use this to your advantage?

make it an issue of self-interest for them. if something they value can be at risk, they will be more likely to defend it.

If you research my past posts here this issue is exactly what I preach.
There are those articulated enough to finesse the undecided but the teeth gnashing gun hating liberals need to be fought for spreading lies and deceit with their own tactics!!!

 

[U201491]

Not necessarily accurate.
For example, there are a fair number of liberal-minded gun owners who think it's just peachy to talk about licensing and registration.
They'd be willing to put up with even bans on some types of guns because they are not the types of guns "they" own. Somebody else's kind of guns.

But I concur with your observation that gun owners need to do a better job and reach out to the non-gun owners.

That is a good description of a Marxist/Socialist.
" It needs apply to you but not to mine" attitude.
First thing is they need to be reeducated as to what they have become.
And what the end result of those beliefs will be for all.
If they cannot be made to understand that then they will ultimately do serious harm to all of us.
Compromising to their point of views is what got us here. It is time to push back and make people comprehend what they have been turned into. The slow ooze to Marxist/socialism need to be stopped, not aided.

 

[usagi]

it is not at all about "compromising to their point of views".

it is about stopping being confrontational, beligerent, and rude, stopping calling them marxists, socialists, etc.

do you really think you're going to persuade someone on the fence with that rhetoric?

 

[Caveman Jim]

"it is not at all about "compromising to their point of views"."
But it is!!! They are spreading lies, mistrusts and deceit saying all gun owners are evil. How can you just play patty cakes with that? I will not compromise one inch with this kind of "rhetoric"!!!

We are on the same team, different groups need to be dealt with the appropriate actions.

 

[Diamondback]

Be polite and articulate--learn how to take the threads of facts and feelings, and weave them into a rope to pull them in.

Things like how you'd FEEL if you had to watch a loved one be harmed because you were unable to answer the call of duty and protect them (especially stress protecting your children, that usually strikes a chord), and how a gun enables you to do that whether the assailant weighs 110# or 550#. You know, little things like that... go for the same kind of Emotional Hypodermic Needle that the Presstitutes use for the other side.

I'm not going to sit here all day and write your talking points for y'all, do a little thinking on your own with the tools provided and come up with your own--and don't forget to share good arguments, like I've already anted up.

That does not, however, preclude calling them out on it when they outright lie, as long as you don't do a Joe Wilson--more an "I'm sorry, but facts of the matter say otherwise," and cite your source and data--if they're using the discredited old Kellerman study, point out HOW it was discredited and that the author HIMSELF has admitted to blowing smoke.

Think "Chess Game," not "Boxing Match."

 

[usagi]

"it is not at all about "compromising to their point of views"."
But it is!!! They are spreading lies, mistrusts and deceit saying all gun owners are evil. How can you just play patty cakes with that? I will not compromise one inch with this kind of "rhetoric"!!!

We are on the same team, different groups need to be dealt with the appropriate actions.

i understand how you feel, but verbally punching someone in the face is not going to persuade people to our side.

i am not talking about hard core gun grabbers, you shouldn't waste time with them. it's not productive to get worked up about them and rage at them, because nothing you say will accomplish anything.

i am talking about people in the middle. being confrontational, beligerent, and rude is just going to push them to the gun grabber side. any time they parrot some falsehood they've heard from a gun grabber, POLITELY correct them with facts. claims like "the nra gets most of their money from the gun manufacturers". easy to politely refute with hard data. do you really think they'll be receptive if you go all "YOU LYING LIBERAL SCUMBAG! NO COMPROMISE!" and unleash the fury of ted nugent on them?

many people in the middle are "spreading lies" because they're just parroting what they've heard from the anti-gun side. you have to stop treating everyone who parrots a falsehood as someone with evil intent. many of them are simply uninformed or have not heard anything from our side. they are not deliberately trying to "spread lies" knowing they are wrong. they believe these "lies" to be true because they simply have not heard anything from pro-gunners, besides shouting at them, calling them names, and being rude. why would they be interested in listening to us?


like it or not, this is a game of PR. your rights depend on persuading people to our side. why would you do anything that puts that in jeopardy, that hurts your own cause? it doesn't make sense.

as long as you view being polite as "playing patty cakes", you're hurting every gun owner and doing bloomberg's job for him.

you want gun owners to be perceived as the good guys? well, act like one.

 

[U201491]

.................. sometimes the groin shot is best........
Pretty well done being nice to the bad guys, ie; anti gun scumbag leftists !
Be nice to them and you will reap what they cram down your throat. They do not do nice unless it serves them and screws you. Fact of life !

 

[Caveman Jim]

You have no idea how I talk to nonbelievers of the2A so my take is you & those like you assume you know it all.
Good luck changing views in Redmond (little Bend).

 

[U201491]

You have no idea how I talk to nonbelievers of the2A so my take is you & those like you assume you know it all.
Good luck changing views in Redmond (little Bend).

Bend, Redmond, LaPine row are as much of a lost cause as Portland, Eugene and Ashland. Full of Cali Socialist Liberals.

 

[Diamondback]

i understand how you feel, but verbally punching someone in the face is not going to persuade people to our side.

i am not talking about hard core gun grabbers, you shouldn't waste time with them. it's not productive to get worked up about them and rage at them, because nothing you say will accomplish anything.

[snip]

like it or not, this is a game of PR. your rights depend on persuading people to our side. why would you do anything that puts that in jeopardy, that hurts your own cause? it doesn't make sense.

as long as you view being polite as "playing patty cakes", you're hurting every gun owner and doing bloomberg's job for him.

you want gun owners to be perceived as the good guys? well, act like one.

That, and be seen to be polite--wind up Nick the Prick and his buddies, show THEM for the violent extremist nutbars.

A few nuggets from Mas Ayoob that are WELL worth the read for argument tactics anddata to use:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob45a.html

Also, if confronted by Screaming Suzy Soccermommy, ask her a few of these:
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~avondale/extra/Humor/SexAndLove/WomenAndGuns.html

 

[U201491]

you still don't get it.

theres a large number of people who could be persuaded to our side.

if you guys would STOP ACTING LIKE IDIOTS AND ALIENATING THEM!

you are converting leaning pro-gun, neutral or leaning anti into FULL HARDCORE GUN GRABBERS with your behavior.

you're doing bloomberg's job FOR HIM. you are hurting all gun owners.

STOP IT.

No you don't get it.

 

[U201491]

That, and be seen to be polite--wind up Nick the Prick and his buddies, show THEM for the violent extremist nutbars.

A few nuggets from Mas Ayoob that are WELL worth the read for argument tactics anddata to use:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob45a.html

Also, if confronted by Screaming Suzy Soccermommy, ask her a few of these:
<broken link removed>

Massad Is an intelligent man. He has taught classes here in Oregon at Tri County .
His books are worth reading.
In the Gravest Extreme and The Truth About Self Defense should be read by everyone.