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That seems like what I will end up doing a decent 18" 223 AR for starts that can take me up to 600ish, learning, refining over and over...then possibly get a 308 bolt down the road.

I think an AR along the lines of the military's MK12 SPR would be a good compromise for you.
It can accurately reach out to 600+yrds and be a solid platform for practical rifle matches while keeping your ammo costs to a minimum.
 
building the very best you can afford on the ar is the most important investment.you can always buy the accessories as you can afford them down the road.
I'm trying but it sounds like "money" is going to be talking big time...
i am still trying to get the noveske myself so i dont know which model you would want but again buy the best you can get with what you have or you will be selling it down the road to get a better one.
I am looking at this, seems to have the best specs and the best trigger: <broken link removed>
Also evaluating the lightweight stainless steel vs. the chrome lined barrel, looks like the stainless steel is lighter + more accurate vs. heavier and longer life on the chrome lined one.
if your going ar15/223 now over a 308 then also look at the pof p415.
Have not heard of it before (newbie here), how does it compare to the Noveske?
I have the p415 and it is sub moa,i was just out yesterday with mine blowing out the bullseye,it's a $2000 rifle already supplied with the timney trigger,piston drivin,1:8 twist fluted barrel,supressor ready with the flip of the switch block,a very sweet rifle ready to rock out of the box and it dont need oil at all,no carbon gets in the bolt area so no cleaning and no heat,you can touch the bolt after 100 rounds and it is cold.
Well the $2000 already puts you in the range of the Noveske and the like... :)
I figure with no suppressor, there really is no need for a switchblock, yes?
 
Goals were never mentioned, which would really influence a final decision. If you want to hit a big steel gong at long distance and you don't care if you hit it every time, heck yea, get an AR and blaze away. That is a lot of fun. You want to try and set some long distance records...completely different game.
As for the goals, I'd like to learn to shoot long range (some of the youtube vids are just impressive!), have fun, challenge myself to go for longer distances and more challenging targets. I'd like to be able to hit a target (possibly the gong) at will every time, not hit it once every so many attempts. No I don't want to set long distance records, but I want to work on my technique, take my time and make things more challenging as I gain experience. I would also like to be able to use it for practical rifle. As I said earlier, if (and boy that's a big if) I end up spending ~$2K, that's going to be my last rifle for a long long time!
Good luck to the original posters and let us know how it all turns out. I like to help people get started, so if you want to shoot some very accurate benchrest rifles some time send me a private message and I could meet you at Tri County.
Thanks for the offer :)
Once you shoot a rifle with a 2oz trigger capable of shooting groups in the .1s and .2s on a consistent basis at 100 yards, you might rethink your approach of jumping to 600 yards so quickly.
Ok, I have never shot a 2oz trigger on a rifle before, but from past experience with pistols, that IS light..really light :)
 
Rifle,

I had to come back to this and see where you were at. :)

After reading your posts since last night. I once again am going to recommend the bolt action. Since learning that you will be cutting your teeth at long range, definetly get the 223.

I am going to fall back on my build list that I posted last night. You can in fact get a Remington M700P in 223, and that is where I would recommend you to go. But make sure you get at least a 1in9 twist barrel (you might have to get the 20" LTR for the twist, cant remember). Some of the 700P (specifically the 26" pipe) have a 1 in 12, this will not typically stabilize the heavier bullets (unless you reload and speed them up ALOT). The reason I say look at the twist, is because tighter twist means you get the ability to shoot heavier bullets, which relatest to longer range gyroscopic stability. At 600y, you can get away with 50gr projectiles.

Again you mention the 600y line, and hitting the gong at will. Lets get some gong answers.......what are the dimensions of the gong? Myself and SSSamurai from Snipershide were consistently hitting a 3" flapper at 600y last winter in Ellensburg (it was one of my good days). If your gong is a 10" plate at 600y, please buy the bolt action. I own an AR currently and have had numerous AR's in the past. Asking an AR style platform to perform this with factory loaded ammo, is quite a feat. I am not saying with the bolt gun it will be garunteed....but you have alot less bubblegum to be thinking about.

With an AR you have 3 recoils that YOU have to manage, where with the bolt action you have 1. Follow thru becomes much more a requirement with AR platforms than it is with the bolt actions. If you want to master everything about long range shooting immediately, and possibly get frustrated, get the AR. I get my AR out and do LR shooting when I feel as if my form on fundamentals is getting spotty, as it magnifies any defiecencies you are doing.

AR recoil has 1. Firing pin strike, projo being propelled 2. bolt assembly slamming back into buffer assembly 3. bolt assembly locking up in the action. Those are the 3 recoils of an AR.
Bolt action has #1. During all these phases of recoil, your projectile can assume any ill effects with the lack of recoil management, while in the barrel. With proper recoil management, you should be able to watch the trace of your projectile during its time of flight within your riflescope. It really helps if conditions are correct also. When I engage a plate at 600y I get the pleasure of watching my projectile fragment on the face of the steel, it really is a beautiful sight.

Get the 223, sign up for some online training, and wait for the 2nd Magpul Dynamics-Art of the Precision Rifle DVD series, where Caylen should be taking the bull by the horns alot more. I have the DVD series about precision rifle that they just released, and to be totally honest with god and everybody.............It is a bunch of bullbubblegum. It seemed like a Todd Hodnet, Larue Tactical and Horus Vision info-mercial. It only talked about 1 PDA with 1 ballistics program (Windows with Horus Atrag), Larue mounts (I am not knocking them, but believe it or not....there are more makes and styles out there), and Hodnett spoke nothing of (true) fundamentals, rifle set up, etc.

Once again, not trying to piss anyone off, just my $.02. Take any and all advice that I give with a grain of salt, as these are what I have found along my journeys.

At the end of the day Rifle, you will be the one shooting whichever weapon system you choose, you have to like it, and shoot it...not any of us. You know what you like/want better than anyone else, so as long as you are smiling...I am smiling.

Matt
 
BTW Otter, a 2 oz trigger is light!! Guys that shoot triggers that light are masters of there domain, personally a trigger that light, scares the dog bubblegum out of me!

My triggers are set at 2lbs, and I am thinking of turning them up to 2.5lbs. I like to feel them a little before they break, helps with my breathing cycle also.
 
Matt, thanks for the info, and the advice from everyone else as well, it has really shed a lot of light on things that I was not considering, and as I mentioned earlier..$2k for a rifle + who knows how much on a scope is going to be a pretty big step to take....lots of financial decisions have to be made there.
 
BTW Otter, a 2 oz trigger is light!! Guys that shoot triggers that light are masters of there domain, personally a trigger that light, scares the dog bubblegum out of me!

My triggers are set at 2lbs, and I am thinking of turning them up to 2.5lbs. I like to feel them a little before they break, helps with my breathing cycle also.
No wonder the ROs at Tri-county are chasing people..of course..a high power rifle with 2 oz trigger...just kidding :)
 
There was some good advice to consider an in between cartridge, but it needs to be pointed out a .243 tends to burn up barrels quickly.

Could you elaborate on why this is?

Rifle,

I have the DVD series about precision rifle that they just released, and to be totally honest with god and everybody.............It is a bunch of bullbubblegum. It seemed like a Todd Hodnet, Larue Tactical and Horus Vision info-mercial. It only talked about 1 PDA with 1 ballistics program (Windows with Horus Atrag), Larue mounts (I am not knocking them, but believe it or not....there are more makes and styles out there), and Hodnett spoke nothing of (true) fundamentals, rifle set up, etc. Matt

I actually just got done watching this DVD and I have to disagree with your comment about fundamentals. There was lots of talk about body position, breathing, natural point of aim, trigger pull, loading the bipod, etc. He (Todd Hodnet) even talked about how to place the strong hand on the gun to minimze the symapthetic thumb movement you can get when you squeeze the trigger. At any rate, there was enough fundies talk that as someone who is just getting into learning about precision shooting I know I will have my hands full just addressing what was brought up.

The Horus reticle seemed overwhelming when I first saw it but if you learn to use it I bet it will make making corrections a lot easier. As for the PDA it just seemed like a fancy calculator to me. One thing that amazed me at this Todd Hodnet guy was his seemingly encylopedic-computer like ability to make mental calculations and refine all that into a simple statement like "hold 4 mils elevation and 1.6 mils for wind" and the next thing you know it was watch the trace and hear the ding.

What I found really valuable was in the extras section they gave a number of formulas that you could use to estimate range, target size, convert range in meters to range in yards so that if your turrets were MOA you could make the appropriate adjustments.

The Magpul Precision DVD surely ins't the "be all end all" of precision shooting but I felt like it was a good place for me to start.

ETA: I found this article and found it interesting just from a numbers perspective in so far as comparing a 223, 243, and 308 ballistics. http://www.chuckhawks.com/243_service_rifle.htm
 
If the ratio of powder to bore diameter is high, like with the .243, the throat tends to actually burn up and get eroded away fairly quickly. Thus the term barrel burner. This causes the barrel to become inaccurate. The sharp edges of the lands also slowly erode away, but that is usually after the throat is already gone. A .243 Win barrel is often toast at less than 1000 rounds.

The .308 has a lower powder to bore ratio, and often won't drop off in accuracy until after 3000 rounds or even more. The 7mm-08 and 260 Rem are right in the middle, so expect 2000+ rounds of consistent accuracy. There is a wildcat caliber called the 30BR that has a really low powder to bore ratio and I'm hearing these barrels last a long time, like out past 5000 rounds. All calibesr eventually burn up a barrel, and replacing a barrel isn't cheap. A caliber that doesn't burn up a barrel is less expensive to own in the long run. The .223 has a fairly low powder to bore ratio and are often good for 3000+ rounds as well.

You don't touch a 2oz trigger unless you want the gun to fire. For tight groups, it is the only way to go though. These are on very specialized rifles. I often shoot free recoil where I touch no part of the gun other than the trigger. Neither of these rifles have a safety by the way. You don't load them until you are ready to shoot.
 
If the ratio of powder to bore diameter is high, like with the .243, the throat tends to actually burn up and get eroded away fairly quickly. Thus the term barrel burner. This causes the barrel to become inaccurate. The sharp edges of the lands also slowly erode away, but that is usually after the throat is already gone. A .243 Win barrel is often toast at less than 1000 rounds.

Hmmm. So the 22-250 and 300 WinMag are not great rounds in terms of barrel life?
 
Correct. The 220 Swift is another one, and so are the 7mm magnums. I think part of the reason the WSSM magnums never caught on is because the barrels don't last.

Another thing a lot of people don't pay attention to is barrel heat. I've watched guys at the range shot and shot and shot their rifles without letting the barrel cool. This causes more problems then the over bore issue since metal that is hot erodes much more quickly. Take an over bore rifle and shoot it until the barrel is super hot and you have just eroded out part of the throat.

I'd always wondered how the ARs hold up to repeated shooting without letting the barrel cool, but then learned they have a special chrome lining to prevent this erosion.
 
Correct. The 220 Swift is another one, and so are the 7mm magnums. I think part of the reason the WSSM magnums never caught on is because the barrels don't last.

Another thing a lot of people don't pay attention to is barrel heat. I've watched guys at the range shot and shot and shot their rifles without letting the barrel cool. This causes more problems then the over bore issue since metal that is hot erodes much more quickly. Take an over bore rifle and shoot it until the barrel is super hot and you have just eroded out part of the throat.

I'd always wondered how the ARs hold up to repeated shooting without letting the barrel cool, but then learned they have a special chrome lining to prevent this erosion.

So why not chrome the barrels of the 22-250, 7mm, 300 winmag, 243 type guns? Does that affect accuracy?
 
I honestly don't know. From a barrel makers perspective it would be the last thing I would want to do. If the thing lasted forever I wouldn't be able to sell you a new barrel.
 
Could you elaborate on why this is?/QUOTE]

Kevatac,

I have went through some of Caylen's personnal classes, and I can attest that there is alot of stuff that Todd Hodnet does not cover. I am not trying to get into a pissing match here, so please do not take this the wrong way.....

I do agree that there were some talk of fundamentals, but not even touching the surface of where a novice shooter should be paying attention. Did Todd mention anything about breaking the shot at the natural respiratory pause? How about getting straight behind the rifle? No, he said you want the rifle to be inline with your leg.......how can I the shooter duplicate that? If you want the most of the info from the video, watch the extras of disc 3. Where Caylen walks the other guy through a Natural Point of Aim drill.

How about rifle set up? I dont recall any. Making sure your ocular is adjusted correctly, adjusting your cheek piece for a proper cheek weld with your eye centered in your scope, how about parralax????? I listened to how Todd said to adjust your parralax, and I think that is bullbubblegum!! Once my ocular focus is adjusted, I lock it. Now the only adjustment I make is parralax, which I do anytime I change my target.

I know Todd has rewrote this whole long range thing, I think he is a good salesman, bottom line!!

These are my opinions, and my opinions only. Please do not take these the wrong way.
 
I think forums overstate the rate at which barrels are "burnt." I agree, 22-250, .243, .264, the RUMs, and other high powder/velocity guns do wear quicker. But, everyone throws out the "1000 rounds and it's done" cliche and it's simply not the case. Can it happen? Sure. But, I've shot and seen many of these calibers with barrels that hold up for 2000+ rounds through them. I have yet to see a 300 WM burn up at anything close to 1000. I would argue that it rarely (if ever) happens.
 

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