.223 rem or .308 win for target shooting up to 600-800 yards?

[Greenbug]

Do yourself a favor:

Buy a decent quality bolt action 308, plan on spending $500-$800 for the gun.
Buy a very good quality scope, the best you can afford, and spend at least as much on the scope as you do the rifle. The scope is more important to accuracy than the rifle is at your point in the learning curve.
Spend the rest of the money (you would have wasted on getting a high dollar fancy rig you wouldn't appreciate or know how to use to it's potential) on a quality entry level reloading setup, brass, dies, powder, primers & bullets.
Learn how to use all of this stuff, then maybe you might realize you dont need to buy that fancy schmancy tactical crap down the road after you have spent some time behind the trigger ringing the gong a half a mile away.
Don't waste your time on a 223 for the ranges you are looking to reach, it wasn't built for that, the 308 will work much better for you.

 

[mm509]

RifleEnthusiast..........Here is what I would get if I was you.
1. Rem Model 700...extensive aftermarket choices. Or just get a used M700P/LTR. If you get a M700 AAC/SD plan on $600-$700. Remington M700P (used) $750, the benefit to the "P" model is that you get a good fiberglass stock, vs. the tupperware SPS or Hogue.
2. Get a 20 MOA base. Burris XTR rings. less than $100
3. With glass...buy what you can afford. But a Millet 4-16x50, was a great scope for me. It tracked extremely well, always returned to zero, and fairly inexpensive. $300-$350.

That would get you running minus ammo. It is a beginner set up, but once you can pull the trigger and know everything was perfect, and a flier still happened. Now it is time to call the gunsmith. I have personally seen and shot what JD can do with a bone stock remington. Take a 1MOA+ rifle, and turn it into a solid 1/2MOA rifle (sometimes better) for $300.

In closing.....be reasonable in your accuracy expectations. Everyone wants to shoot one ragged hole, correct? Hell, I do. But I know that if all cylinders are firing in order I am happy with 1/2MOA, and ecstatic with 3/8MOA. Be realistic.


Otter...........I have taken my .260 to 1 mile. On one occasion, we were getting nasty mirage (high humidity, warm temps, no cloud cover). One thing I am good at....really good at.....is rapid bolt manipulation. Well the sun went behind a cloud, and somehow I managed to rip off over 50 rounds in what seemed like less than 2 minutes. My barrel was so hot, it damn near boiled water (140 gr, 6.5AMAX, at 2850fps). My throat erosion is extremely minimal at 1500 rounds. My barrel maintenance is questionable at best (it is an experiment). I do not clean, until my groups open up to beyond 1 moa. That is normally around 300-400 rounds, then I push/pull 3 sweets 7.62 followed by 1 dry, 1 oil, 1 dry. Then proceed with typical firing procedure order.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Ok, sounds like the majority of opinions is on a bolt action 308 + as decent as I can afford on a scope. That was my thought that the 223 may be too short of a step if my ultimate goal is to go to longer ranges.

 

[mortre]

Well, the .22 is a great start. One rule of thumb is to spend as much on the glass as the rifle, but I doubt most of us do that. But I would suggest to put ammo into the budget, not as an afterthought. Ammo can get expensive quick, especially if you are buying it over the counter. I reload and I still wouldn't call it cheap. Save your brass, if you start shooting regularly you will most likely end up reloading it anyway. If you don't, well, you can always sell the brass to reloaders to offset the cost of over the counter ammo. I would still recommend starting with a .223 at this point and upgrading if you get to the point that it's holding you back, but it's up to you. It will definitely be easier to shoot a .308 at 800 yards. The better B.C. will let you cheat wind calls a little more, but the .223 will force you learn to read wind better. Pick your poison.

There is not going to be a price difference between a .223 or .308 bolt rifle. Regardless of which you get you can use the same scope, just don't get one of those caliber specific drop compensating scopes. The only real difference is going to be ammo price after you get everything up and running. And you can always keep your scope if you want to upgrade from .223 to .308 in the future, so in a way I guess it would make sense to put your money there. But .223 target ammo will save you about 25%-30% on cost per bullet. That's 25%-30% more shooting per dollar, and no real chance of developing a flinch. Start short and work your way out, regardless of whether you go .223 or .308. And put A LOT of time in behind the .22 drilling fundamentals.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Well, the .22 is a great start. One rule of thumb is to spend as much on the glass as the rifle, but I doubt most of us do that. But I would suggest to put ammo into the budget, not as an afterthought. Ammo can get expensive quick, especially if you are buying it over the counter. I reload and I still wouldn't call it cheap. Save your brass, if you start shooting regularly you will most likely end up reloading it anyway. If you don't, well, you can always sell the brass to reloaders to offset the cost of over the counter ammo. I would still recommend starting with a .223 at this point and upgrading if you get to the point that it's holding you back, but it's up to you. It will definitely be easier to shoot a .308 at 800 yards. The better B.C. will let you cheat wind calls a little more, but the .223 will force you learn to read wind better. Pick your poison.

There is not going to be a price difference between a .223 or .308 bolt rifle. Regardless of which you get you can use the same scope, just don't get one of those caliber specific drop compensating scopes. The only real difference is going to be ammo price after you get everything up and running. And you can always keep your scope if you want to upgrade from .223 to .308 in the future, so in a way I guess it would make sense to put your money there. But .223 target ammo will save you about 25%-30% on cost per bullet. That's 25%-30% more shooting per dollar, and no real chance of developing a flinch. Start short and work your way out, regardless of whether you go .223 or .308. And put A LOT of time in behind the .22 drilling fundamentals.

The ammo seemed to vary greatly (between the 223 and 308) and even within the caliber itself, and that made me think. If I go to the range 2x/month, and if we are talking 308 at roughly $1/round, that's $100 right there, vs roughly $50 or $60 for the 223 I want to learn and want to take my time and have fun, I am in no hurry to shoot 800 yards just for the sake of 800 with bad/wrong habits or technique. I have -somehow- all the time in the world to learn, refine and repeat
Dumb question, is there such a big difference in recoil between the 223 and the 308 that jumping to 308 too soon may lead to developing a flinch?

 

[mm509]

Rifle, of course there is a difference in recoil between the 223 and 308. You are propelling a projectile from zero to nearly 3000fps in nanoseconds.

After reading your last post, quite possibly the 223 may be a better choice.

Are you a beginning shooter? I agree with Mortre 100% about the 22. I probably shoot my 22 twice to three times as much per range session than my other rifles. Still applying the same fundamentals; follow through, NPOA, trigger press at the natural repiratory pause, blah, blah blah.

Buy whichever you feel the most comfortable with, and shoot the day lights out of it. Wear it out, buy again/or rebuild, and repeat the vicious cycle. Its fun regardless of what you are shooting, as long as you are shooting.

 

[mjbskwim]

Just to stir the pot a little here

Why a 308? Why not get a flatter shooting cartridge like a 300win mag for those distances? 300RUM?

@ doubletap.Some DPMS 308s are fine shooters.A guy up here bought one and sent it to some friends to build a load for it.They got some pretty surprising results ,less than MOA
But I wouldn't expect that from many of them.

From what little I learned last summer on this,you can get a very accurate rifle from the box.Better than most will be able to shoot.I think a bolt gun would be better at the 500+ ranges,but some of the ARs have become very accurate also.
You can build a rifle with a top shelf barrel and tricked out action and be at $2-3K.And if you aren't a natural at shooting,you may not be any better than with a fancy ,factory Rem 700

Good luck

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Rifle, of course there is a difference in recoil between the 223 and 308. You are propelling a projectile from zero to nearly 3000fps in nanoseconds.

I know there IS a difference, I just don't know how much of a difference. Is it a poke in the shoulder vs a smack on the head..I know it's difficult to describe it in words

After reading your last post, quite possibly the 223 may be a better choice.

After thinking about the price of ammo and the need for lots of practice..hmmm 223...may not be such a bad idea actually I won't outgrow it quickly (I think)

Are you a beginning shooter? I agree with Mortre 100% about the 22. I probably shoot my 22 twice to three times as much per range session than my other rifles. Still applying the same fundamentals; follow through, NPOA, trigger press at the natural repiratory pause, blah, blah blah.

Yes, I am for rifles, and yes that's the reason I got it..cheapo..I can shoot loads without burning a hole in my pocket.

 

[mortre]

Looking on midway at blackhills ammo (arbitrary, I only chose it because I've used it before.

.308 168 grain SMK is roughly $25 per 20. So give or take $125 per 100
.223 69 grain SMK is roughly $45 per 50. So give or take $90 per 100

There is a huge difference in recoil, mainly because a heavy barreled .223 bolt has very, very little. My 15ish lbs .308 doesn't have much either, but it still has far more than the 8 lbs. 223.

Look at it this way, my 223 load is a 69 grain bullet in front of roughly 25 grains of powder. My 308 load is a 168 grain projectile in front of something like 42 grains of powder. There is no free lunch in physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Oh, the 300 win mag is closer to 190 grain projectile and 70 grains of powder.

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

Why a 308? Why not get a flatter shooting cartridge like a 300win mag for those distances? 300RUM?

Seemed like the most common after the 223 (but I may be wrong).
As to why am leaning AR vs bolt action, I am hoping to use it for practical rifle as well as long range, didn't seem that many people use bolt action for the practical rifle (due to the need for fast shooting) but again I may be wrong.

Thanks for the help everyone, I am very grateful to everyone for hashing it out loud with me and exploring it from the different angles and points of view.

 

[Kevatc]

Really glad you brought this thread up RifleEnthusiast. I had a similar thread going on just a short time ago.

I have had the chance to shoot a very nice .308 police sniper rifle with a Nightforce scope. Damn gun was heavy ... 14-15 pounds at least I am guessing. At any rate, even with the weight of the gun and a bipod there was pretty decent recoil and I developed a flinch pretty quickly. I've also shot a 30-30, 30-06, 270, and 300 WinMag. The 300 definitely had some hefty recoil.

With all I've learned on my own plus all the input I have received here I think when the time comes I am going to go with a Savage Model 10 with accustock and accutrigger in 223 and shoot heavier bullets. I'd rather buy something that I think I can learn on and develop a good foundation from and shoot at modest distances out to 400-500 yards.

With this said I wonder if the 243 might be a decent intermediate choice between a 223 and a 308? Anyone????

 

[doubletap007]

Advice on models I should be looking at would be greatly appreciated the one I was talking about is the DPMS SASS (the claim is that it's sub moa) and many review websites seem to agree with that. The cheapest Noveske I came across was $2500 I think.

you can buy the noveske 7.62 upper for around $1800,with high quality barrel,bolt etc.
then buy the stripped lower for $250 and put your own trigger choice in it(i like timney,mine is crisp and light)or giessel is good too,buffer tube and extention,stock and you built it much cheaper.
If you chose to build the upper you would save a little too but i would just buy the complete upper if I had the $1800.
the thing is if you buy the best you can get as you can afford it you can build it as you go rather than spending $1500 and being upset that it dont meet your expectations.
even if you can only afford the high quality upper for now and use any lower for now as the lower dont really matter except for a good trigger makes a world of difference.

sass sounds cool(semi auto sniper system i believe)but it is far from a sniper rifle.noveske is oregon made and the coveted rifle,its a top notch package.(i have no part in noveske by the way)

 

[mortre]

If you were going to split the difference between 308 and 223, I would go a little bigger than 243. 260 rem and 7mm-08 are popular.

If you are interested in practical rifle stuff then flat top AR now, and a 308 bolt down the road might not be a bad plan. I can ring the steel silhouette at 300 without much problem with my 16" ar and irons. A good flat top 18-20 inch AR with decent optics can definitely reach 600. And it's a good zombie apocalypse gun!

P. S. If you go the AR route, I would suggest a cantilever mount that will hold your scope high and out front. If you can keep a good nose to charging handle cheek weld it creates a great reference point for your sight picture.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

you can buy the noveske 7.62 upper for around $1800,with high quality barrel,bolt etc.
then buy the stripped lower for $250 and put your own trigger choice in it(i like timney,mine is crisp and light)or giessel is good too,buffer tube and extention,stock and you built it much cheaper.
If you chose to build the upper you would save a little too but i would just buy the complete upper if I had the $1800.
the thing is if you buy the best you can get as you can afford it you can build it as you go rather than spending $1500 and being upset that it dont meet your expectations.
even if you can only afford the high quality upper for now and use any lower for now as the lower dont really matter except for a good trigger makes a world of difference.

sass sounds cool(semi auto sniper system i believe)but it is far from a sniper rifle.noveske is oregon made and the coveted rifle,its a top notch package.(i have no part in noveske by the way)

I was hoping I would not have to build something myself, but I can see your point, I can tailor it to my liking.
Well now that I know that Noveske is built here in the US and more specifically in OR, that gives it extra points in my book (I have great pride in products built here! you can call me silly...)
What kind of accuracy am I to expect from a Noveske (in a 223)? they seem to be very highly regarded barrels.
I was looking at their website and I came across the NST section ( <broken link removed> ) they seem to be tuned for competition (especially with the triggers), putting the money aside for a bit, does anyone have any particular models that I need to consider?

 

[RifleEnthusiast]

If you were going to split the difference between 308 and 223, I would go a little bigger than 243. 260 rem and 7mm-08 are popular.

If you are interested in practical rifle stuff then flat top AR now, and a 308 bolt down the road might not be a bad plan. I can ring the steel silhouette at 300 without much problem with my 16" ar and irons. A good flat top 18-20 inch AR with decent optics can definitely reach 600. And it's a good zombie apocalypse gun!

P. S. If you go the AR route, I would suggest a cantilever mount that will hold your scope high and out front. If you can keep a good nose to charging handle cheek weld it creates a great reference point for your sight picture.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

That seems like what I will end up doing a decent 18" 223 AR for starts that can take me up to 600ish, learning, refining over and over...then possibly get a 308 bolt down the road.

 

[mjbskwim]

Really glad you brought this thread up RifleEnthusiast. I had a similar thread going on just a short time ago.

I have had the chance to shoot a very nice .308 police sniper rifle with a Nightforce scope. Damn gun was heavy ... 14-15 pounds at least I am guessing. At any rate, even with the weight of the gun and a bipod there was pretty decent recoil and I developed a flinch pretty quickly. I've also shot a 30-30, 30-06, 270, and 300 WinMag. The 300 definitely had some hefty recoil.

With all I've learned on my own plus all the input I have received here I think when the time comes I am going to go with a Savage Model 10 with accustock and accutrigger in 223 and shoot heavier bullets. I'd rather buy something that I think I can learn on and develop a good foundation from and shoot at modest distances out to 400-500 yards.

With this said I wonder if the 243 might be a decent intermediate choice between a 223 and a 308? Anyone????

Well if you want very little recoil,the Savage 10 in 223 is the gun for you.My friend has pins all down his right side and can't handle very much recoil.That's the rifle ha bought.I shot it a couple times and it actually seem to have less recoil? movement? than the AR.And I was told by a long range competitor,that the 243 is a great round for long range .

 

[mortre]

Olympic arms is another local AR manufacturer. Some people hate them, but they have a lifetime warranty. My AR is an oly arms and I used to have a oly 20" heavy barrel upper that drove tacks (.75 MAO or so and would post sub .5 occasionally). And it wasn't even there super ultra match barrel, just an ultra match. My wife has a Noveski, and it's in a whole different class. But it was also about 3 times as expensive.

Low recoil rounds generally do not benefit from gas systems as far as recoil is concerned. The weight of the bolt carrier slamming back and forth creates more recoil than the round itself.

 

[doubletap007]

I was hoping I would not have to build something myself, but I can see your point, I can tailor it to my liking.
Well now that I know that Noveske is built here in the US and more specifically in OR, that gives it extra points in my book (I have great pride in products built here! you can call me silly...)
What kind of accuracy am I to expect from a Noveske (in a 223)? they seem to be very highly regarded barrels.
I was looking at their website and I came across the NST section ( <broken link removed> ) they seem to be tuned for competition (especially with the triggers), putting the money aside for a bit, does anyone have any particular models that I need to consider?

building the very best you can afford on the ar is the most important investment.you can always buy the accessories as you can afford them down the road.
i am still trying to get the noveske myself so i dont know which model you would want but again buy the best you can get with what you have or you will be selling it down the road to get a better one.
if your going ar15/223 now over a 308 then also look at the pof p415.
I have the p415 and it is sub moa,i was just out yesterday with mine blowing out the bullseye,it's a $2000 rifle already supplied with the timney trigger,piston drivin,1:8 twist fluted barrel,supressor ready with the flip of the switch block,a very sweet rifle ready to rock out of the box and it dont need oil at all,no carbon gets in the bolt area so no cleaning and no heat,you can touch the bolt after 100 rounds and it is cold.

 

[Otter]

Excellent information passed back on forth on this thread. One of the best I've seen on this forum actually. I think a lot of people try to convince others to shoot what they like to shoot. Considering the OP's experience, I think he should start at shorter distances to build confidence and with a ligher recoiling rifle, thus my advice to go with a .223. Hands down the .308 is a better round for the distances originally discussed. 300 Win mag or a .338 Lapua would be even better, but holy crap, what beginning should start with that kind of recoil? There was some good advice to consider an in between cartridge, but it needs to be pointed out a .243 tends to burn up barrels quickly. The 7mm-08 and 260 Rem are good choices too, but not being one of the top ten cartridges the price of ammo will be even more. The .223 and .308 benefit from cheap ammo, easy on the barrels, and lots of people to go to for advice for reloading when the time comes.

Goals were never mentioned, which would really influence a final decision. If you want to hit a big steel gong at long distance and you don't care if you hit it every time, heck yea, get an AR and blaze away. That is a lot of fun. You want to try and set some long distance records...completely different game.

Good luck to the original posters and let us know how it all turns out. I like to help people get started, so if you want to shoot some very accurate benchrest rifles some time send me a private message and I could meet you at Tri County. Once you shoot a rifle with a 2oz trigger capable of shooting groups in the .1s and .2s on a consistent basis at 100 yards, you might rethink your approach of jumping to 600 yards so quickly. I also have some 1/2 moa factory .223s you could try to help make your decision. They are so much fun to shoot.....I can't say that about a bigger caliber due to the recoil.

 

[GongShow]

I guess I have a different take than everyone else on here. Then again, I'm still a new guy.....so keep that in mind. If you're fairly new to shooting and have an interest in long-distance shooting, I wouldn't spend a bunch of money on a tier 1 AR-15 or AR .308. Don't get me wrong, POF, Larue, LMT, GAP, Noveske, etc... all make incredible guns. But, long-distance shooting isn't an easy task, even with great equipment. I would hate to see you get discouraged and out $3k+. The guys advocating for the Remmy 700 bolt gun make a lot of sense.

Honestly, if you want something that carries decent ballistics outside of 500 yards, .308 and .223 ARs aren't necessarily my favorite. The bolt-gun recommendations were good ones, and you'll have a little more margin for error at a much more reasonable price. I realize that you're looking for a gun that's cheap to feed. Have you considered a 30-06? Slightly better long-range ballistics with more options of bolt-gun offerings than a .308. Maybe not as cool as a tactical black gun, but would be my choice given price, accuracy, and options. DPMS and Armalite make decent .308 ARs, but they're not going to give you near the accuracy as a less-expensive bolt gun. The top-tier stuff is going to run you twice as much, and you'll still be in need of a nice optic. If I were you, I would get a reasonably-priced Tikka, Winny, or Remmy gun (.308 or 06) with an MOA guarantee and top it with some decent Leupold, Zeiss Conquest, on Nikon glass. You could probably get into something like that for a little over a grand.