.223 ar15 reloading question

[ron]

I have loaded on 223 on a Dillon 550 for 15 years. You trim after sizing. All cases will stretch a little when sized. Too much lube will cause dimples in the case near the shoulder. I load for competition and plinking. Trimmers. Yes the Giraud is the best butt the cost is $$$. The RCBS trimmer you can purchase a different cutting head to chamfer/debur as you trim saves two steps. I have used a Lyman trimmer for thousands of rounds and it works well. Depending on the type of 223 rifle you are shooting target or plinker? Bullets- 55 fmj Winchesters are the cheapest and probably the least accurate bullet to use. Which makes them OK for plinking but not for small groups from a bench. IMI and Hornaday 55's are accurate. Hornady A-max and Sierra Match Kings are some of the the most accurate bullets. Winchester brass is more accurate than Lake City. Federal brass is too soft. Lake city is perfect for plinking. Varget is a good powder for the heavier bullets (77 & 80) but does not meter that consistently. WW-748, AA-2230, H-335 will meter well in the 550 and work in your 223. I have found a load that works in 1/9 , 1/8 or 1/7 twist rifles. Winchester brass- 26 grains of WW-748 and the 52 Sierra Match King. Sub MOA groups. I have shot a lot of 223's and this information is from my personal experiences. I have tested loads with only changing brands of brass. These powders I recommend I have gone through many pounds of each. There are many other powders and bullets I am sure that work well but I do not have personnel experience with.

 

[Dizle]

Do I need to get a factory crimp die? Do rifle rounds ned to be drilled?

 

[Dizle]

Err crimped. Not drilled

 

[deadshot2]

As for case trimmers I recommend the Giraud Powered Case Trimmer. Especially if your going to be trimming a large amount of brass. The reasons are many. The Giraud works blindingly fast. Once properly set up to minimize wasted motion, you can easily trim 15 or more cases a minute. It trims them very accurately to a tolerance of +-.002 or less. The best thing is it chamfers both the outside, as well as the inside of the case at the same time. The Dillon trimmer requires you to do any chamfering in another separate step. If your using a Dillon trimmer as you reload, you either have to stop the process to chamfer, or go without. Neither is very desirable. The Giraud isn't cheap, but quality tools seldom are. I put them in the same class as a microwave oven, or a TV remote control. Once you buy one and use it, you'll wonder how you got along without one for as long as you did! Here is the Giraud in action. Bill T.

YouTube - Giraud Tool Company Power Trimmer

YouTube - Giraud Power Case Trimmer

I have nothing bad to say about the Giraud trimmer but when loading .223 it actually slows down the process. It may be lightning fast for trimming but it still requires all the other prep to be done separately. The Giraud, unlike the Dillon trimmer, does NOT size at the same time as it trims, therefore requiring a separate operation.

If loading precision ammo for 600-700 yard Prairie Dog hunts or competition, that's one thing. Loading large quantities of .223 ammo for 3-Gun, Target, or plinking that's another. The 3-way cutter on the Giraud is nice but I have found no need to chamfer or de-burr using my Dillon. The razor sharp carbide cutter tool makes a nice clean (no burr on inside or outside of the case) cut. The FMJ-BT's slip right in without any damage to the jacket.

All my cases are first de-primed, sized, and trimmed with a tool-head holding a universal de-prime die and the Dillon Rapid Trim. I've timed my "production rate" for this stage and have sized/trimmed as many as 1500 pieces of brass in an hour. With case feeder, one only has to pull the handle on a 650 with a steady rhythm. Don't think this kind of rate can be achieved using a Giraud when one has to size in a separate operation.

 

[billt]

I have nothing bad to say about the Giraud trimmer but when loading .223 it actually slows down the process. It may be lightning fast for trimming but it still requires all the other prep to be done separately. The Giraud, unlike the Dillon trimmer, does NOT size at the same time as it trims, therefore requiring a separate operation.

If loading precision ammo for 600-700 yard Prairie Dog hunts or competition, that's one thing. Loading large quantities of .223 ammo for 3-Gun, Target, or plinking that's another. The 3-way cutter on the Giraud is nice but I have found no need to chamfer or de-burr using my Dillon. The razor sharp carbide cutter tool makes a nice clean (no burr on inside or outside of the case) cut. The FMJ-BT's slip right in without any damage to the jacket.

All my cases are first de-primed, sized, and trimmed with a tool-head holding a universal de-prime die and the Dillon Rapid Trim. I've timed my "production rate" for this stage and have sized/trimmed as many as 1500 pieces of brass in an hour. With case feeder, one only has to pull the handle on a 650 with a steady rhythm. Don't think this kind of rate can be achieved using a Giraud when one has to size in a separate operation.

Speed is good only to a point. It starts to become a detriment when it begins to effect the overall quality of the finished cartridge. As I mentioned. What turned me off from purchasing the Dillon was the fact it does not chamfer the case after trimming. When you trim it leaves a large burr on both the inside, as well as the outside of the case. The Giraud utilizes a cutting head that removes this burr and puts a nice chamfer on both the inside and outside of the case, while trimming it to the proper length. With the Dillon you have to either live with this burr, or else remove it in a separate step. There is no way around it, except to ignore it, which of course is not a satisfactory solution.

I resize and deprime separately anyway. I then tumble in Stainless Steel Media. This cleans the inside of the primer pocket spotless, as well as the flash hole. It also removes any and all resizing lubricant from the case. After that I reload on a Dillon Progressive. I simply remove the resizing die because it is not required. Yes, this requires extra steps, however if you want quality ammunition there is no way to shortcut this process. I like starting the reloading process with clean, polished, and resized brass. It equates to the best overall results when you start with a case that looks like this. Bear in mind this was nothing more than filthy range pick up brass when I started. Bill T.

 

[deadshot2]

billt-

I don't know about the Dillon Trimmer you have had experience with but mine does not leave the burr you referred to on either inside or outside of case. Perhpaps the one you encountered had a dull bit or it was installed incorrectly. Mine came with a nice, razor sharp, carbide bit, that cuts cleanly. Yes, it does cut the case mouth square but no burrs. Has continued to do so for many, many, thousand rounds.

On the Stainless Steel tumbling media, I totally concur. I started using it about 6 months ago and no longer use cob/shell media for anything. No more dust, media replacement, or having to add just the right amount of polish and guessing when it's needed. As I've stated in other posts, "It's like loading with new brass". I've even cut some pieces in half to see how well the inside is cleaned. It's just as clean as the outside with a little less polish.

 

[sprocket3]

If you are reloading brass that you get 2nd hand be sure to chamber some before you really start to crank out the numbers. I loaded up a batch that I resized with a full length sizer that would not loan into my gun. The case length was fine, but the case shoulder had stretched forward to the point that it won't chamber. I only checked the case length prior to loading them all up. I think I have about 400 worthless varmint rounds and it really messed up one trip I took.

I got 2 lots of used brass from a vender and the fist batch worked perfect. I'm guessing the 2nd batch was shot through something with a real loose chamber.

 

[billt]

billt-

I don't know about the Dillon Trimmer you have had experience with but mine does not leave the burr you referred to on either inside or outside of case. Perhaps the one you encountered had a dull bit or it was installed incorrectly. Mine came with a nice, razor sharp, carbide bit, that cuts cleanly.

The problem is anytime you machine a surface you leave a burr. Try dragging your fingernail lightly over a case that has just been removed from your Dillon Resizer / Trimmer. There will be a burr. Perhaps the sizer die will fold it vertical as you withdraw the fired case from the die, but the burr will be there, just pointing in a different direction. Brass is very malleable, and will form readily without cracking. Without chamfering these burrs will remain.

It is of greater concern on the inside of the case. There, it can cause scratching of the softer Gilding Metal of the bullet jacket as the bullet itself is seated. This is such a concern to benchrest shooters they actually use a chamfer tool with a greater angle to minimize this. It is what is known as a "low drag" chamfer tool. Lyman, as well as Sinclair International makes one. Properly chamfering the inside of the case is imperative to creating quality reloads. Especially with precision bolt action rifle target ammunition. Bill T.

 

[billt]

I loaded up a batch that I resized with a full length sizer that would not loan into my gun. The case length was fine, but the case shoulder had stretched forward to the point that it won't chamber. I only checked the case length prior to loading them all up. I think I have about 400 worthless varmint rounds and it really messed up one trip I took.

I got 2 lots of used brass from a vender and the fist batch worked perfect. I'm guessing the 2nd batch was shot through something with a real loose chamber.

Not necessarily. What happens with a lot of people who reload bottle necked rifle cases, is they do not take the necessary time to properly lubricate the inside of the case necks. This is imperative or else when you withdraw the inside neck expander plug from the case after it has been forced into the resizing die, it will stretch the case forward from the shoulder to the case mouth. This can cause chambering problems with loaded rounds.

What I do after lubricating the outside of the case is to take a Q-Tip soaked in case lube and run it into the neck of the case. I do this on every single case as well as the expander plug before I run the first case into it. This is yet another reason why I tumble after resizing. You don't want that lube to contaminate the powder charge by not removing it after it has done it's job. You cannot short cut these procedures and wind up with quality reloads. Besides, leaving case lube inside the neck will result in less than proper bullet grip on the case itself. Bill T.

 

[deadshot2]

The problem is anytime you machine a surface you leave a burr. Try dragging your fingernail lightly over a case that has just been removed from your Dillon Resizer / Trimmer. There will be a burr. Perhaps the sizer die will fold it vertical as you withdraw the fired case from the die, but the burr will be there, just pointing in a different direction. Brass is very malleable, and will form readily without cracking. Without chamfering these burrs will remain.

It is of greater concern on the inside of the case. There, it can cause scratching of the softer Gilding Metal of the bullet jacket as the bullet itself is seated. This is such a concern to benchrest shooters they actually use a chamfer tool with a greater angle to minimize this. It is what is known as a "low drag" chamfer tool. Lyman, as well as Sinclair International makes one. Properly chamfering the inside of the case is imperative to creating quality reloads. Especially with precision bolt action rifle target ammunition. Bill T.

BTW, if you are cleaning your brass, after trimming, in Stainless Steel Pin media, any burr remaining that is other than a massive "rollover burr" caused by a dull tool bit, is removed by the tumbling process. A very common process in manufacturing.

And I still hold that the sharper the tool, the less the burr, even to the point of being non-existant. Combine high speed (5,000 RPM) and the sharpness of the bit, and NO burr, even for a fingernail to find. With a slow speed, dull cutter, like many hand operated cutters end up with after a few cuts and what you say is true.

As I am referring to .223 for "AR Fodder" the Dillon does a fine job. For benchrest shooting we're talking a whole different animal. Most BR shooters I know don't use a Giraud, they do it all by hand so they can control EVERYTHING.

 

[sprocket3]

Not necessarily. What happens with a lot of people who reload bottle necked rifle cases, is they do not take the necessary time to properly lubricate the inside of the case necks. This is imperative or else when you withdraw the inside neck expander plug from the case after it has been forced into the resizing die, it will stretch the case forward from the shoulder to the case mouth. This can cause chambering problems with loaded rounds.

What I do after lubricating the outside of the case is to take a Q-Tip soaked in case lube and run it into the neck of the case. I do this on every single case as well as the expander plug before I run the first case into it. This is yet another reason why I tumble after resizing. You don't want that lube to contaminate the powder charge by not removing it after it has done it's job. You cannot short cut these procedures and wind up with quality reloads. Besides, leaving case lube inside the neck will result in less than proper bullet grip on the case itself. Bill T.

Those are good points and I will try that on the next batch. Though I did find that the cases I got are still too long prior to re-sizing by a large margin. I was loading large batches for Sage Rat hunting with 1/2 MOA groups typical for the reloads.

I went through one lot of 500 which all worked fine, but when I moved on to the second lot of brass it was mostly too long to chamber.

 

[billt]

Most BR shooters I know don't use a Giraud, they do it all by hand so they can control EVERYTHING.

Most NRA High Power Shooters use only a Giraud. He himself is one of the best. Bill T.

Doug Giraud
NRA Member, Master Class Highpower Rifle
USPSA/IPSC Master Class Open Pistol

 

[bmgm37]

If you are reloading brass that you get 2nd hand be sure to chamber some before you really start to crank out the numbers. I loaded up a batch that I resized with a full length sizer that would not loan into my gun. The case length was fine, but the case shoulder had stretched forward to the point that it won't chamber. I only checked the case length prior to loading them all up. I think I have about 400 worthless varmint rounds and it really messed up one trip I took.

I got 2 lots of used brass from a vender and the fist batch worked perfect. I'm guessing the 2nd batch was shot through something with a real loose chamber.

Was your sizing die adjusted correct? You should have a case gauge for ever caliber you load. You should adjust your sizing die within the minimum/maximum linits on the gauge. If they fit the gauge, they will chamber in your rifle.

 

[ron]

If you are reloading brass that you get 2nd hand be sure to chamber some before you really start to crank out the numbers. I loaded up a batch that I resized with a full length sizer that would not loan into my gun. The case length was fine, but the case shoulder had stretched forward to the point that it won't chamber. I only checked the case length prior to loading them all up. I think I have about 400 worthless varmint rounds and it really messed up one trip I took.

I got 2 lots of used brass from a vender and the fist batch worked perfect. I'm guessing the 2nd batch was shot through something with a real loose chamber.

I have found this problem with 223 brass fired from a Mini-14. The problem is the sizer die is not adjusted down enough to bring the shoulder of the case into spec. The way you solve this is to measure
a sized and un-sized case with a RCBS Precision Mic. You adjust the sizer die to bring the shoulder of the case to what a factory load is. I had a friend who bought some reloads that would not chamber in his match grade AR. Measured the reloaded case with the RCBS Precision Mic finding the brass was not properly sized enough. Some re-loaders have had the bottom of the sizer die trimmed to properly adjust the sizer die. This is from mixed match manufactures of dies and reloading press. The RCBS dies work great in my Dillon 550. I use the Prec. Mic to set up 223-308-30/06 calibers.

 

[bmgm37]

I have found this problem with 223 brass fired from a Mini-14. The problem is the sizer die is not adjusted down enough to bring the shoulder of the case into spec.

This is the same thing I mentioned, but a Case Gage is a lot simpler as it is just a Go/No-Go Gage. This makes sure it will chamber in your rifle.

 

[billt]

I have found this problem with 223 brass fired from a Mini-14. The problem is the sizer die is not adjusted down enough to bring the shoulder of the case into spec.

In .223 I use a Small Base Resizing Die, and with a fired and lubed case in the shell holder, bring the ram up to the top of it's stroke. I then check with a piece of .001 feeler gage to make sure it will not pass between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. If it does I adjust the die downward accordingly. Many times the press will spring slightly, and you will need to adjust it down further. This is a greater possibility with "C" type presses, and Turret models. Even a cast iron, O-Frame press like the RCBS Rockchucker can spring slightly. Checking with a feeler gage helps prevent this. Bill T.

 

[deadshot2]

A case gauge like the one shown in bmgm37's post is almost an essential for loading any autoloading caliber. Essential that is if you want to avoid feeding problems. Unlike a bolt action, autoloaders are often impossible to force an improperly sized round fully into the chamber so the bolt will go fully into battery. I use one for all my .223 and 9mm rounds as part of my final inspection.

 

[sprocket3]

Was your sizing die adjusted correct? You should have a case gauge for ever caliber you load. You should adjust your sizing die within the minimum/maximum linits on the gauge. If they fit the gauge, they will chamber in your rifle.

I have a case gauge NOW. I didn't check before though. This was the first time I purchased "once fired brass" and loaded it. The cases that don't load in the chamber, don't fit in the gauge either. Imagine that!

I have so much brass that I think i will only work with the good stuff for now. When that runs out in 30 years i can mess with the too long stuff. I only shoot 200-300 a year at Sage Rats and Coyotes.

 

[bmgm37]

It really doesnt matter what the brass was fired in or what length it is now, just use the case gage to set your sizing die up. Keep adjusting your sizing die until it fits in the gage to the proper depth. Once sized correctly then you have to trim and you are good to go.

 

[sprocket3]

It really doesnt matter what the brass was fired in or what length it is now, just use the case gage to set your sizing die up. Keep adjusting your sizing die until it fits in the gage to the proper depth. Once sized correctly then you have to trim and you are good to go.

The cases are fully inserted into the sizing die and the shell holder is touching the bottom of the die. I don't see any other "adjustments" to make at this point. The only adjustment on my die is the decap pin depth.

It could be that I didn't lube them enough and they then got stretched back out when i pulled them out of the die. Some of them ended up being very hard to remove and I even stuck a few in the die. If i try that those long shells again I will lube them very well.