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1st time shooting my reloads...

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by Iansstud, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    I have been reading and looking into reloading for the 40-super for the last year and a half...

    I loaded up 25 rounds and took them out to the range... I was Very Very unhappy with what happened...

    out of 25rds:
    20 seemed soo weak they had no kick, a few dident even open the action, the rest would not cycle correctly ending up in a FTE or stovepipe
    5 worked as i would have hoped...
    All of the brass looked great, no buldges, cracks, or anything... just a little dirty

    All 25 were Very inconsistent from one to the next.

    The only thing I can think of is the Recipe called for Small RIFLE primers and I used Small Pistol primers. I was told this would not hurt anything. Do you think this would cause the inconsistencies?

    Also there seemed alot of room left in the shell for more powder would this change anything


    here is what I did: took 25 new brass in 40 super out of new box from triton, sized them (just to be sure) added my primers, loaded the powder charge 2 scoops of .5cc (11.2gr) Blue Dot, seated 135gr JHP bullets to 1.250"

    am I missing anything?
     
  2. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Portland area Member

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    The small rifle primers are more like small pistol magnum primers in hotness, but also built stronger for higher pressure.

    Blue Dot is a slow handgun powder, not quite as slow as H110 or AA9, but a lot slower than AA5, Unique, W231, etc. And at over 11 grains it may well need a hotter primer like the small rifle.

    It sounds like you just made up a batch of 25 of the same load and they generally performed poorly. The normal practice for developing a new load is to load up a few cartridges (like 5-10) at intervals of powder weights from the starting load to the max load weight. Say 3-5 intervals depending on how broad that rang is. For instance if the start to max powder weight range is 10.5 - 12.0 gr, then I would do loads of 10.0, 10.4, 10.8, 11.2, 11.6 and 12.0.

    You shoot the starting load and observe for signs of functioning, accuracy and over pressure. If all looks good, proceed to the next higher weight load and do the same. Repeat until you see signs of too much pressure or reach the max powder weight loads. Then decide which loading gives you the optimal functioning, accuracy and safety.

    Pistol cartridges if loaded within the data table ranges should not show signs of over pressure like the rifle cartridges do (primer flattening, case head enlargement, etc.) but you can compare how far the cases eject to commercial ammo and how violently the slide cycles, etc. If you see any unusual deformation of the primer or cases then you are WAY OVER pressure for handguns.
     
  3. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    Thanks, This is what I was thinking... Primers... I will try and find some small rifle primers... I may also try another powder type too... but will work my way up like you said to with 5 rd groups until I get what Im after.
     
  4. pencap

    pencap Oregon Member

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    I shot USPSA for years and consequently have loaded zillions of rounds.

    I have chronographed Winchester small pistol vs Winchester small rifle and found ZERO difference with regards to velocity. I have not measured the thickness (didn't find that to be interesting in the least).

    One problem I have seen at matches is that newbies believe what the reloading book says. The reloading book is a good start but is NO substitute for you chronographing your loads personally. What a certain load flies at in someone else's gun MIGHT bear a similarity to yours, might not.

    You should weigh your powder- don't count on 'scoops'.

    A 40 super is not exactly a beginner's type of load.

    In addition, you need to consider the powder (burn rate, bulk, etc), the degree of fill, and the overall length.

    .40 is very very touchy when it comes to OAL. If your crimp isn't great, your rounds will shorten on their way up the ramp and you'll get an extreme spread of 100fps/10 rounds no bubblegum.
     
  5. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    Aren't the small rifle primers deeper than the small pistol primers?
     
  6. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Florence,Ore ah gone Well-Known Member

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    Did you have yhour seater die set to crimp the bullets so the flare was at least straightened out,if not crimped inot the bullet a tad?
    when scooping,do you run the scoop thru the powder,and then level it off with something,like a credit card? this makes the loads more even.
     
  7. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Portland area Member

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    No, the SR and SP have the exact same external dimensions. IT is the Large Rifle primers which are longer/deeper than the Large Pistol primers.
     
  8. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    Ah thanks, I knew something was different somewhere :p
     
  9. motoman98

    motoman98 Gresham, OR Active Member

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    "Scoops should only count at the Ice Cream Parlor"
    Good advice from an long time reloader: GET a powder scale.
    They are cheap insurance and enable you to KNOW what you are putting in the case!
    Your range results: it sounds like your loads are at the minimum for functioning of your pistol, dirty brass on the outside means low pressures and not sealing well but, it's a good start. Primers: small rifle primers have thicker/tougher metal for higher pressures, the 40 super is a high pressure round (I use them in the .357 maximum). You need them if you are going to load "hot"- which is what the super is all about. NOW, You need to work up a load that functions well in your pistol and is safe. That is hard to do with scoops alone. Blue dot is a slower pistol powder and 'likes' the warmer loads. If you used a powder measure, or scoops, and checked weights with a scale, you should hold +- 0.1gr with pistol powders. Then you can safely work up, find your guns' max, then back off. READ more about this procedure in a good loading manual to be safe...with today's more conservative recommended loads, you probably don't have to do this but,
    YOU will gain a ton of confidence after you've done so!
    Sidenote: I used to load BD in 9mm: filling the case with over 10grs of powder and using a lighter bullet, what a flash!... ahh, but newer load books have toned down since then...
     
  10. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Florence,Ore ah gone Well-Known Member

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    scoops aren't as bad as some make them out to be.You just have to be consistant in how you use them.some powdermeasures are picky in their operation too.
    Pour the powder into a wide mouthed container,scoop ONCE to fill the scoop,then level it off by scraping with a playing card..business card,whatever.

    which reminds me,most Lee scoops and measures are geared to the safe side..very few throw as much as they say they will.double check with a scale to be sure.
     
  11. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Small rifle primers also have thicker metal to withstand what well may be a harder firing pin strike. I've seen military type rifles punch holes in SP primers in .223/556 - not a happy day, possibly.

    +1 I can't see a chrony diff between SP and SR primers, but that doesn't make it OK to interchange them. Use SR in a pistol, and you might not strike hard enough to ignite.

    Actually I believe the military spec 5.56 rounds like Lake City use a whole different, even thicker CCI primer like #34 or #35 or whatever it is. I'm too lazy to look it up, LOL.
     
  12. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Portland area Member

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    +1

    Scoops are nothing more than fixed cavity powder measures. It is no different in principle than using a RCBS Uniflow or Redding 3BR powder measure except that those use an adjustable cavity and the scoops are a series of fixed cavities. The scoops fixed cavity approach is also applied in the Lee Auto Disk measure, and I believe some of the older models of measure from other vendors.

    If you use the Lee data for their scoops (without weighing), then as stated in the Lee reloading manual, they error on the safe side in their data tables and the chart of volume to weight cross-reference for various powders. You may not get top velocities but you also will not harm yourself or your gun.

    I think many of us find the scoop or disk cavity which gives the weight we want (using a powder scale), just like you would compare an adjustable measure setting to a scale weight. When I record my reloading sessions I record both the weight and the volume in cc of powder used for easy reference whether I use my Uniflow (adjustable cavity) or Auto Disk (fixed cavity) measure the next time.

    I find that for most powders I end up using the next size cavity to get the weight stated for the original cavity.

    Scoops in and of themselves are not weird or faulty, any more than any other powder measure. If you cross check with a powder scale then you can use the plethora of load data tables stated in grains. If you don't compare to weights, then use the Lee data tables to stay safe, and don;t exceed those unless you also use a chronograph and know what to look for in terms of pressure signs (and common sense).
     
  13. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    I have come to a few conclusions:

    Small pistol and Small rifle are the same as far as pressure goes (not Large pistol or Large rifle) They differ in thickness and small rifle is more suited for High Pressure loads. I have 375 more small pistol primers I will keep using until I run out, or I see an Issue with them.

    I need to get a powder scale and weigh out my loads to make sure I am accurate with my charge.

    I need to set a tighter crimp. (I read that necked cartriges dont need a heavy crimp or a crimp at all.) but I will tighten the crimp a little. **I RE-read a few pages on the 40 super and they recomend a Heavy Taper Crimp... so that is what I will try next time**

    I will do 5 rounds at a time, with each powder charge and work up (I was avoiding this because I just wanted a plinking round not a Hunting/ target load) But I guess I will give it a go...

    I now wish I had got a different powder... I wanted something I could use in 40 super and 45acp loads. It was blue dot or red dot... I wanted Unique or power pistol but they were out...
     
  14. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    About your crimps. Remember that unless all of your cases are exactly the same length, your crimp die will hit the case mouths in different places and your crimps will vary. Reloading is all about details.
     
  15. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    If its new Triton brass, there should not be any issues correct??? I guess I will check to make sure,

    also This ammo seats on the neck, not the case mouth so it should not be any touble
     
  16. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    "On the neck" would be more like "in the neck?" At the very case mouth, there is still a crimp? The friction inside the neck isn't really any different from the friction of a straight walled case - the wall is just shorter?

    Now that the brass has been processed and fired, I'd want to check it for sure.

    As for new, I always check it. Someone posted how the bullets can creep in the brass from recoil if crimps aren't good.
     
  17. JohnH

    JohnH Milwaukie Active Member

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    Yes, CCI makes a 'Military' style primer for both small rifle (#41) and large rifle (#34) They are a magnum primer with a thicker cup.

    As far as some other primer information goes:

    http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

    Also see the attached chart for some other dimensional information.