1944 Colt 1911

[Edpamp]

A friend has a Colt 1911 SN16385XX Mfg 1944 Marked Government Property, He clams that it came with a factory bright blue finish,Hardened slide & "officers tune Up" . The gun is beautiful,I am not a 1911 person, but this is a real nice gun,I noticed that the Barrel has British proof marks. Any idea what would be a fair price for this gun? Or other thoughts on it would be appreciated.

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[Yellowsevenpot]

Pictures?

 

[Doc In UPlace]

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Edpamp]

Colt 1911, can't get my camera to focus any closer on the proof marks. Thanks

 

[Bigbaddude]

That's a beautifully Colt. Hard to believe that's the original blueing

 

[jbett98]

This might shed some light on the pistol.
1911 .45 ACP Production Information
Military Versions from 1912 to 1945.
Manufacturer/Serial Number/Date Made



(23) Colt: (Commercial/Military Model) S/N 857,000 to 1,609,529 = 1943 (approx. 6,575 Commercial models were converted to military production. Colt stop it's commercial production at S/N C215,083)
(24) Colt: S/N 1,609,529 to 1,743,846 = 1944





Colt Foreign Service Models:

1) Colt M1911 Canadian Contract: S/N C5400 to C16599 = Sept. to Nov., 1914 ( Only 5000 pistols in this serial number range were shipped to Canada.) Caliber .45 ACP

2) Colt M1911A1 Canadian Contract: S/N 930,000 to 936,000 = 1943 ( 1,515 military model pistols were shipped to Canada through the Lend-Leased Act from this serial number range.) Caliber .45 ACP

3) Colt M1911 British Contract: S/N W29117 to W97000 and S/N C29 to C74,200 = May 1912 to April 1919 (Approx. 17,500 pistols were shipped to England. Serial numbers that begin with a "C" were .45 ACP and serial numbers that begin with a "W" were .455 Webley calibers.

4) Colt M1911 British RAF Contract: S/N W91,100 to W110,696 = Jan. 22, 1918 to April 28, 1919 (Approx. 10,000 pistols were shipped to the Royal Air Force from this serial number range and were .455 Webley caliber.)

5) British M1911A1 WW II Lend-Lease: From all S/N's of U.S. M1911A1 models = March 11, 1941 through the rest of WW II ( The U.S. furnished 39,592 pistols to Britain through the Lend-Lease Act.)

6) Colt M1911 Russian Contract: S/N C23000 to C89000 = Feb. 19, 1916 to Jan. 18, 1917 ( Russia purchased 51,000 M1911 .45 ACP pistols during WW I. from this serial number range. Russia purchased more M1911 pistols than any other country besides the U.S.) Regular commercial model Colt except has "English Order" mark in Russian on left side of frame.

7) Colt M1911 Norwegian: Colt S/N C18501 to C18850 and Norway S/N 1 to 5000 = June 1915 to WW II (400 Colt 1911′s .45 caliber purchased and issued to Norwegian Navy. May 1917, 300 Colt 1911 .45ACP pistols purchased in 1915. In 1917, Norway obtained licence to manufacture it's M1911 pistols. The first they made had "COLT AUT PISTOL M/1912″ on the slides and then at S/N 100 this changed to "11.25 m/m AUT. PISTOL M/1914″ on the slides.

8) Colt M1911 Argentine: S/N C6201 to C11621 = 1914, S/N C20,001 to C21000 = 1916 S/N C86790 to C116000 = 1919 ( 321 shipped in 1914 marked on right side of slide with "MARINA ARGENTINA". In 1915 another 1000 shipped within above S/N range. In 1919 another 400 M1911 Colts shipped in above S/N range. Imported into the U.S. in 1960 as surplus but very rare in any condition.)

9) Colt M1911A1 Argentine Modelo 1927: S/N 1 to 10,000 = July 28, 1927 to Feb. 16, 1928 ( Marked on slide with " COLT CAL. 45 MOD. 1927″ and S/N's stamped on top of slide in Colt's italic numbers.) SYST. COLT pistols made by Argintina under licence from Colt marked on right of slide with "EJERCITO ARGENTINO / SIST. COLT CAL 11.25 mm. Model 1927″. Other M1911A1 pistols made in Argintina at Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles, Rosario, Argintina S/N 10,001 to 112,000

10) Colt M1911 MEXICAN: After WW I, Mexico procured an unknown number of M1911 pistols made by Colt. These are rare because of Mexico's strict penalties for illegal possession of military arms (ON SPOT EXECUTION). Very few made it to U.S. and would have a "C" prefix serial numbers. May have "EJERCITO MEXICANO" on right side of slide.

 

[Edpamp]

That's a beautifully Colt. Hard to believe that's the original blueing

No sign of re-bluing all marking crisp an clean, don't understand the Brit proof marks now that I have the gun in my possession I see BPM on frame and slide ??

 

[jbett98]

Special order just for the Brits?
It's not parkerized, so Colt might have shipped it to them blued.
Might be worth the money to have Colt do the research on it.
Who's initials are stamped on the left side, just above the magazine release?

 

[Edpamp]

Special order just for the Brits?
It's not parkerized, so Colt might have shipped it to them blued.
Might be worth the money to have Colt do the research on it.
Who's initials are stamped on the left side, just above the magazine release?

The letter P is stamped stamped just below the mag release and toward the grip, did I mention that it is marked United States Property?

 

[jbett98]

Should be some letters above the mag release, up near the slide release.

 

[thirtycal]

If you have stamps on the frame and slide that look like this, then it's a british lend-lease that likely came back into the US in the 50's when some GI serving in Europe purchased it commercially, and brought it (or sent it) back:
Or, it's possible that it was comercially exported from England sometime post-war back to the US.

The thing that is fairly clear is that the serial number on your 1911 falls closely in range of other authenticated British lend-lease examples (look at the SN on the example in the above photo)... so I think it's fair (given the serial number and the stamps) to assume this is an authentic lend-lease - which makes it quite valuable...

...except...

...somebody decided to 'pretty it up' but bluing it and replacing the original grips with incorrect ones - which effectively destroyed any collectible value it had. If it were all-correct, wearing the original parkerizing and was in really nice shape, you'd be looking at somewhere around a $2500+ gun.

But the blueing knocks that down considerably.

I don't think collectors would give much more than $1K for it, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to value these odd (non-original) peices. Who knows, somebody might really want a "pretty" british stamped lend-lease and would be willing to pay more. For collectors however, this peice has little value beyond that of an interesting shooter.

-Thirtycal

 

[Edpamp]

If you have stamps on the frame and slide that look like this, then it's a british lend-lease that likely came back into the US in the 50's when some GI serving in Europe purchased it commercially, and brought it (or sent it) back:
Or, it's possible that it was comercially exported from England sometime post-war back to the US.

The thing that is fairly clear is that the serial number on your 1911 falls closely in range of other authenticated British lend-lease examples (look at the SN on the example in the above photo)... so I think it's fair (given the serial number and the stamps) to assume this is an authentic lend-lease - which makes it quite valuable...

...except...

...somebody decided to 'pretty it up' but bluing it and replacing the original grips with incorrect ones - which effectively destroyed any collectible value it had. If it were all-correct, wearing the original parkerizing and was in really nice shape, you'd be looking at somewhere around a $2500+ gun.

But the blueing knocks that down considerably.

I don't think collectors would give much more than $1K for it, but that's just my opinion. It's hard to value these odd (non-original) peices. Who knows, somebody might really want a "pretty" british stamped lend-lease and would be willing to pay more. For collectors however, this peice has little value beyond that of an interesting shooter.

-Thirtycal

Thank you all very much!! My buddy is convinced that this is a factory job so he is going to have Colt research it. If it turns out that the gun was blued at the factory I will post it. Thanks Again,ED

 

[jrprich]

I would suggest posting your pics and questions up on
http://www.coltforum.com/
Lots of fine Colt collectors there that can give you excellent opinions.

 

[thirtycal]

I'm pretty sure there is exactly a zero percent chance that the finish on that gun was applied at any factory or refurb depot or anything otherwise connected with WWII. That was the product of someone's post-war decision to make the gun more 'pretty' - and since the WWI-era Colt's were beautifully factory blued, someone was trying to make it look like what they thought a Colt should look like. Unfortunately they didn't realize (or ignored) the fact that WWII-era Colts were not blued.

It's quite common for guns like this to show up (some even chromed nor nickeled), with the owner making claim about it being a special Officer's Colt; but it's a really just not true. Certainly there were blued Colt 1911's serving in various theatres of WWII, but those would have been guns made prior to mid 1941. The one photo'd is a 1944.

Thirtycal

 

[Medic!]

A 1943 Ithaca. A re-parked 1945 Rem-Rand. And a pair of 1942 colts.
Even if your gun was blued when new. It would not be correct. Hard for someone to ignore a red flag like that.
Not to say someone could not be talked into believing the gun is ''special''.
PT Barnum said there is a person like this born every minute.
I know.....I know. I want to believe!

What kills it for me is the gun looks buffed out. Especially noticeable in the scalloped area behind the trigger. It should be a sharp machine cut.

 

[orygun]

I believe thirtycal and medic hit it right on the head.
So, I believe it's been refinished and the true collector value has been affected.
But, it is a 1940's US Government 1911A1. That alone is valuable. How much depends on the purchaser.
But if I was in the market, I'd think a grand is a fair price for both the buyer and seller. What I like is that it does have history and that since someone earlier "F-ed it up", it's a user!
Look at it! Love it! Shoot it!

Nice piece.

 

[CAL30M1]

I would say without a single doubt that this 1911 has been polished post war. It has de-horned some of the sharper edges and rubbed out the crispness of the stamps destroying a significant % of the collector value. That does not mean it's a bad pistol. Actually for someone like me it still holds a lot of value because I hate having firearms I don't want to shoot because of their collectibility. However if someone wanted a Gov't property marked Colt that the could go out and enjoy shooting without harming the value of the firearm, this would make a great candidate. Price depends on the buyer and seller but I would put a conservative number around $1500.00 Just my $.02

 

[orygun]

I think this would be a great pistol to have engraved, keeping all of the roll marks intact, then reblued. Make it an heirloom of a different kind.

 

[Medic!]

No! No! No!!!!!!!!! It's a symbol of WWII. Not some gun a Pimp would keep stuck in his pants. And use to whip up on his hoes!

Don't take it further away from what it is. Just have it re-parked. Or leave it alone.

What is wrong with you people?

 

[orygun]

No! No! No!!!!!!!!! It's a symbol of WWII. Not some gun a Pimp would keep stuck in his pants. And use to whip up on his hoes!

Don't take it further away from what it is. Just have it re-parked. Or leave it alone.

What is wrong with you people?

There's a LOT wrong with me!
I like the idea of having it reparked, but have you ever seen an elegantly engraved and blued 1911? It's a thing of beauty. Check out Ed Brown's Signature Edition. Pic below.
Obviously the "real" value of this gun is gone and you might be able to fake it by having it reparked, but you would still know it's fake.
This gun's "been there, done that" and deserves to be treated as such. Doing a first class engraving, old school style, would cost more than the gun's worth, but it would certainly be a show piece.
Everyone knows that a 1911 isn't a "pimp gun". That would be a Taurus chrome with gold, or a Glock with the sights on the side.
I have an old Colt 1911 that's been "messed" with, but it still wears original blue. The finish is the thing that keeps me from being stupid and finding a master engraver to do his magic on it. Rarely do I do things just to be fancy, but an engraved 1911 is on my bucket list. That and a full auto Tommy Gun...